Pro-life / Pro-choice

[Drowz0r]

Admittedly usually something argued accross the atlantic than in the UK anymore... I am curious to know how it ranges in the forum.

Anyone here pro-life or pro-choice? Any specific reason?

What makes you think this isn't an issue in the UK?

What is your opinion?

Most feminists would be pro choice, on the grounds that bodily autonomy is a human right and women are humans.

What do you think?

I'm pro choice but have serious reservations about abortion as it is provided in the UK.

You?

Well we tend to be a little further ahead in our politics than in the US, generally. Gay marrage being a good example. So in comparison with the US - which you see arguging a lot on the net, we have very few problems.

Do you think there are issues in the UK on this?

My opinion, seeing as I was asked, isn't so black and white. Sorry! I would run with pro-life as a general rule but I'm not sure it covers all eventualities... part of asking is the helping towards the formation of my own view of course.

I do find that most feminists are pro-choice too. Regretiblly the reasoning for why is often very strong (good thing) but very limited to "It's my body!". I'm hoping for something a little more than that though. Not implying that it's not a valid reason of course. I just believe even simple questions like "Is killing bad?" can be answered "Yes" - but there is a huge reasoning behind that simple answer.

Hmm, not sure it is helpful to compare US and UK politics. I'm not keen on the argument 'we have very few problems in comparison to so-and-so' - you can virtually always find somone less well off than yourself, so it becomes a lazy argument about not doing anything much.

I think there are huge issues in the UK about this. A big one being that it is still very taboo to talk about abortion. Another being that if women's bodies were more respected, I truly believe we would need far fewer abortions. And of course, although I won't begin to compare the risks of abortion to the immense risks of an unwanted pregnancy, abortion is not risk-free and therefore, must be an issue for women's health.

I don't see how the reasoning can be anything but 'it's my body'. What other argument could be advanced?

I'm absolutely pro choice, to insist that a woman / girl continues with a pregnancy she doesn't want, is beyond barbaric.

I don't think that all killing is bad either, I know without a shadow of a doubt that I would be capable of killing another human being if they were endangering my life/ the life of my family and my DH is too, with the added advantage of being trained by the military to do so. Killing someone in self defence is entirely justified.

What is "limiting" about it being my body?

Actually don't bother answering that. I'm not engaging in an argument with a man on this subject.

'It's my body' is a very good reason though. I don't think it's limited, I think it's just uncomplicated (in that sense)

Bodily autonomy is huge and a very fundamental right.

It can't be taken from a woman. You can say What about the baby? But an early foetus doesn't have bodily autonomy anyway, being totally dependent. That informs my feeling that the age of viability limit is on balance a good thing.

I say this as someone who hates abortion. Don't we all, says everyone.
But since having two children I know what's involved in childbearing and mothering. It's not a decision that anyone can force on another.

I agree ... it's the root reason, and all other reasons/justifications must stem from that one.

I know this has been pointed out many times, but it's worth doing so again; It's time we stopped using the anti-abortionist phrase "pro-life".

I am pro-choice with regard to abortion. BUT I am pro-life in general, I have no intention of committing suicide, I haven't murdered anyone or supported genocide, etc. Calling anti-abortionists "pro-life" makes the rest of us seem like a miserable death cult. And in any case, when they say "pro-life" I have generally found they are not pro-life as such, they are pro-fetal-life, but not pro-mothers'-lives or pro-abortion-doctors'-lives.

Give them a more accurate name: Anti-abortionists.

I agree. Pro life is a really irritating phrase.

Recent thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1215597-Pro-life-Pro-choice

OP: you are aware that 'pro-life' means 'in favour of women having to carry and bear unwanted babies', aren't you?

Until a foetus can be removed from a woman's body and gestated elsewhere, without harm to either her or the foetus, I don't see how the argument can really go beyond "it's my body".

The alternative to "it's my body" is forcing a woman to undergo a pregnancy and childbirth against her will. Having been through a, very much wanted, pregnancy and childbirth I find that unacceptable. Interestingly I'm much more pro-choice since I gave birth.

I don't like the word "pro-life".

I am not against life.

People who claim to be "pro-life", are anti-choice, however.

I'm the same Suzi.

It's an 'Informed opinion' I suppose.

Rather than daft notions of just getting a bit fat and giving birth is only a few hours, and off you go everything's the same. I suspect a lot of 'pro-lifers' think its all a bit of a minor inconvenience, blown up out of proportion by daft moos looking for attention.

I agree with alexpolismum about the 'pro life' label and have to add that I object even more to being called 'pro abortion' (as I was recently) when I consider myself to be pro choice.

who the hell is 'pro abortion' - it's just the alternative is worse

"Pro-abortion" just does sound so silly, doesn't it?

Abortions for all! There should be more abortions!

OK I'm going to stick my neck out here.
I am not anti-abortion but I do have strong reservations about how it is offered. I do not believe that it is your right to have an abortion no matter what. There are often mental and emotional consequences to the woman that I believe are often not made clear prior to the appointment at the clinic.
I have always found it very difficult to voice any form of anti-abortion point of view as I get flamed for being anti women's rights however I don't see it that way. There are very good cases where abortion is the right choice but there are very many cases where abortion is just the short term easy choice and hang the consequences.
I, personally, would not seek to have an abortion because I do feel that it may be my body however the baby has a body too and I am responsible for that. It is a difficult point of view to have but I have lived with it and I stand by it.

I think many here has misunderstood the post. The limited reasoning (not reason) provided to me, was limited because it lacked an explaination of the reason behind it. Reasoning is the explaination, reason is the point. So I would be given an answer but no reason as to why it was their view point, just that they thought that. Going back to the "killing is wrong" analogy. You can say killing is wrong and why, the laws against it, the social norm surrounding it, the history to it, personal feelings on it. And yes, I'm aware that no one-size fits all but in general terms killing is wrong - kinda missing the point there too.

Pro-life/choice debates always seem to be a lot of incomplete "It's by body" arguements. I don't think it's a universally acceptable answer tbh. To play devils advocate, does that mean it's ok to self-harm? It's your body right? Then why are people encouraged not to do it? And considered ill for doing it? The reasoning is what I'm after, not a bold "my body" answer (to abortion, not self harm :P).

Fortunately, sometimes posts are as blunt as:

"Actually don't bother answering that. I'm not engaging in an argument with a man on this subject."

Which doesn't help anyone understand and only creates enemies.

As I explained, my incomplete view is:

I do find that most feminists are pro-choice too. Regretiblly the reasoning for why is often very strong (good thing) but very limited to "It's my body!". I'm hoping for something a little more than that though. Not implying that it's not a valid reason of course. I just believe even simple questions like "Is killing bad?" can be answered "Yes" - but there is a huge reasoning behind that simple answer.

I'll check out the recent thread (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1215597-Pro-life-Pro-choice) thanks for the link.

As for termanology, Pro-life is the general term. Anti-choice is another given to them which personally I find a little distasteful. Pro-choice have also been named anti-life which is equally as bad. I think looking past the initial term and getting to the source is the actual point is well worth the time.

If people think that having to carry a child against it's will is going to endear the child to it's mother, I would have to ask how they came to that conclusion. And if people would rather women died from having an unsafe medical procedure, as used to happen before abortion was legalised, I would have to question in what way that was being 'pro-life'. It should not matter what peoples opinions are on the subject, the facts show that even in the event that it is legislated against, women will still seek them and therefore should have the right to a procedure that is medically safe and legal.
I think that goes a bit beyond 'It's my body'.

I would fight to the death for your right to stand by that point of view mollified, for your body. Forced abortion is an unthinkable cruelty.

But, when you take that opinion and force it onto another woman's body? It does start to smack rather of I-know-what's-best-for-you...

We need to believe a woman when she says she knows what's best for her. Counselling, by all means. But if a woman says that she's thought about it, she's made the decision, it's best for her - for whatever reason, they are her reasons. I think we have to give the woman the right to bodily autonomy.

Interesting piece about this on bbc the other day Molli, I'm sure you'll have seen it - here basically seems to be saying that women who've had unwanted pregnancies are more at risk of mental health issues, but whether they have the baby or a termination makes no odds.