So, the car salesman said to me...

[GooseyLoosey]

"When will your husband be coming in to look at the car?"

It is some time since I had come across such a sexist comment and was at something of a loss to work out how to respond. I left, but was that enough - will he understand why his comment was offensive? Should I have explained to him?

I walked into an estate agent once, looking to register with them when DH and I wanted to move from our little flat to a house, ahead of DS arriving. A little like in that scene in Pretty Woman, I walked up to the desk and said, rather perkily "I'd like to register please!" The male estate agent looked me up and down while sneering and said, "I am not sure we have anything in your price bracket......". I walked out.

Despite my protests, DH insisted on registering with them . Still not forgiven him for that. When DH walked in one afternoon, the same guy couldn't fawn over him enough. I had a great job at the time too, equal in salary terms to DH's [anger], Oh and I am a much snappier dresser than scruffy DH!

SardineQueen a salesman did ask my dh when his wife (i.e. me) would be looking at car. I admit that if the salesman in the opening post would be guilty of sexism if he did not ask a husband when a the wife would be able to see car.

But there is no real way of knowing if he is sexist or not other than applying the test described by MmeLindor a few pages back.

MakesCakes has already given a real life example of how society (of which the govt is very much a part) saves money if people are married (or cohabiting in a long-term relationship. In this way marriage and cohabitation are the same).

His words are outdated in the sense that it would be sexist if he had not asked a man 'when will wife see the car', but we don't know what he would have said to a dh. So I can't comment one way or another.
It is not, however, the norm for people to buy big-ticket items without discussing it with each other first.

As for the cohabiting to be put in same 'box' as married, I agree that when it comes to certain state benefits and societal norms they very much are put in the same box these days.

Oh God, car salesmen. I love cars, and get very involved in choosing them. DH and I went to one of our local dealerships to look at used cars, and initially sat down with one of the salesmen to talk through what they had available. I asked a perfectly pertinent question (about acceleration, I think), at which point instead of answering it the salesman turned to my husband and said, conspiratorially "I can see LML is completely bored with all this talk of cars - I'm afraid when you buy used you don't get to choose the colour."

WTF? We didn't buy a car from them...

Wamster - I am married, and have chosen to be MrsEvilWolefGenius but that doesn't mean that I want to be seen as a couple in every aspect of life - in fact the very thought of that horrifies me. I have my own identity, and wish to be seen as me - a person with opinions, likes, dislikes, problems, talents, a name and identity of my own - not just one half of MrandMrsEvilWolefGenius.

I really value the people who see me as me, rather than just so-and-so's wife, or young-so-and-so's mum.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius, I'm not knocking people's choice to hang onto individuality- not at all, I see it as the best way of being. I really, really do.

But I have to accept from the evidence I have been presented with -from the likes of dittany ( a person I either strongly agreed with or strongly disagreed with!) - that marriage is a patriarchal tool that is used to oppress women.
I can't deny it, they are right.
It's not how I want it to be, but that's the truth of it.

that marriage is a patriarchal tool that is used to oppress women.

I wouldn't say is. 'Has been' - for sure. 'Can be' - unfortunately yes, especially in some cultures. 'Is', for most married women in 21st britain, - no. Do some people still have the sort of thought process deriving from what marriage used to be - yes. Exhibit 1 (arguably!) Mr Salesman. Does that one whit excuse him for perpetuating such attitudes? No. He's outdated.

"MakesCakes has already given a real life example of how society (of which the govt is very much a part) saves money if people are married (or cohabiting in a long-term relationship. In this way marriage and cohabitation are the same)."

Erm... Eh?

You have made it clear (and make it clear on many threads on MN) that you see cohabiting and marriage as completely different. The whole point of this thread is that a salesman has been prompted into making a comment based on OPs title Mrs and/or her ring. Which an unmarried person in a relationship would almost certainly not have.

You said "It seems to me that you are in denial about how a patriarchal society views marriage- it is, quite simply, the desirable state for a woman because it saves money for the govt AND because it helps keep the little woman in her place just a few reasons off the top of my head (!)"

You have most definitely been talking about marriage, not cohabiting, and this thread is talking about marriage.

i was hiring a van with DP accompanying me but he wasnt down as a driver and did not pay. the shiney suited assistant started to explain the gears etc to DP.... that went down particularly well with me as i have a first class degreee in mechanical engineering...

i asked him to stop. explained loudly that DP was not the customer, that i was the customer, so i would appreciated if he spoke to me & not DP.

the best bit was looking around the reception & realising that the other women who were waiting, were smiling.

I don't understand this view that a woman who may well be highly independent, have lived alone for years, and have a high paying job, will turn into a deferntial wifey as soon as the cake is cut.

Very few people in our society believe that to be true. The only people who view wives like this are the occasional car salesman. The reason this man's comment has caused dismay is because it is not how most people behave. Most people behave in the way that modern society expects (even if deep down they are still a sexist dinosaur).

I don't sell cars; but work in a store selling high priced things, as a sales person I am not sexist, but... frequently women come in alone stating they are researching products for their husbands, or for themselves so when the man comes in he is only faced with the easy task of handing over the credit card without all the fuss of having the wife try 100 things on.

the car sales folk will have experienced the same kind of thing; in a high pressure target-driven environment every minute counts, so if the decision is clearly not going to be made without the other partner, some sales folk could possibly view these women as time wasters.......
it is old-fashioned, and assumptive, but it is also playing the percentages as this is how many married/partnered women 'shop'
it is up to you as the customer to fight against these assumptions
If you are treated in a patronising way due to being a simgle woman, you must complain. It is the only way staff will be trained to value every query.. women have buying power too, but the perception still is that they do not.

Yes, I have been talking about marriage here. My response was to your query about how cohabitation were seen as the same and my response is that: in certain areas they are seen as the same by way of explanation.

there are many women who still use and perpetuate that kind of stereotype, deferring any buying decision to the husband - and also men who have to 'ask the wife first!'
sales people have to adapt to each situation and not assume

Legally however they are not seen as the same and this is important because while a cohabiting women will be treated 'as married' while living with her partner, she will not be seen as having been married should they split or her partner die.

I really do not see why this statement is incompatible with my other posts on mn as regards marriage/cohabitation.

But wamster you said that being married saves the state money.

I don't understand that point. You seem to have revised this now to say you were including cohabitees. But that revision makes no sense in the entire context of the thread.

Mayan these tactics are losing multi thousand pound sales though.

" women have buying power too, but the perception still is that they do not."

I think this is the crux of it, nicely phrased, and accurate.

Wamster, although I agree with your point that marriage is a patriarchal tool used to opress women, I don't think your argument is consistent.

Of course historically marriage meant that women became the property of their husbands, and obviously some people still base their attitudes on this historical fact. Hence the car salesman asks the woman if she needs to bring her husband along to ok her purchase. In his subconsious view, she has no independent rights or property, therefore she cannot buy a car without her husband. Maybe not actually true anymore, but a hangover from a time when she really couldn't have bought a car without his approval.

However, you also claim that marriage is about society seeing married couples as a unit. But that makes no sense in terms of your view that marriage oppresses women. If it were a about couples becoming joint wiith neither the man or woman being able to make autonomous financial decisions, it would affect both men and women equally and would not cause the oppression of women.

So I can understand and agree with your point about marriage oppressing women but I can't see how that can be the case if marriage is about being a single unit as you also claim.

have to say, I have done the "must ask my husband first" tactic when I know I don't want to buy it, but feel like i'm being pressurized.

the worst thing is doing that when DH is there - he tends to think it means that I need to clear it with him (ie I do want the purchase): I'm training him slowly on that one...

btw, i used that tactic before I was in a relationship too...

On the other hand I do use DH as an excuse to get out of buying, listening to or disclosing any information to pushy sales people though.

'oh I'm sorry, I don't know what month my home, car, pet, contents insurance expires', or 'I can't possibly accept your fabulous quote for new windows, doors, floors, conservatory, complete makeover as my husband won't let me make any decisions like that and you can't speak to him as he is away till 2099'

It's a similar thing to when women are pestered by men and the only thing they can say to get rid of them is "I have a boyfriend".

So raising the spectre of a man to get rid of a persistent man who is not taking no for an answer from a woman...

Hmmmmm.

MayanGoddess - I agree that there may be a stereotype about spending power. I started this thread wondering really how far I should have gone to dispel such views. I am however absolutely sure I did nothing to reinforce any stereotypical views about women or couples.

I arrived at the showroom from work, so was dressed in a suit. I was driving my own car and made it completely clear that I was looking for a replacement. I told him what my criteria were and when told what great financing deals they had said I wasn't interested as I would be paying cash.

As I recall, he asked for some personal info, including title. My usual response to this is "I don't care - put whatever you want" and the usual default is "Mrs?" to which I reply "fine". I am imagining much the same conversation happened here. I do also wear a wedding ring.

At no point did I give any indication at all that someone else would be required to make the decision with me

I started this thread wondering really how far I should have gone to dispel such views.

Well - I think you should have said something quashing - along the lines of 'He won't be. Its my car' - with either a puzzled or contemptuous look.

karmakameleon, I think that being viewed as a 'single unit' is worse for women than it is men because the policies that are based upon being a 'single unit' affect women more adversely than they do men.
This is probably a shit answer, but I am full of flu. So find sense in it if you can .

Wamster I'd agree that being a single unit is worse for women than it is for men. But I'd also think that the car saleman would treat a man and a woman differently and the woman worse, ie he wouldn't ask the man when he's bringing his wife back to look at the car. But you are saying that you think the car saleman would treat both man and woman exactly the same and ask both when they were bringing their spouse in, so the woman wouldn't be treated any worse.

Goosey the other possibility which no-one has thought of, is that maybe he did it on purpose to "put you in your place".

Certainly some men have a real problem with independent successful women and take great pleasure in demeaning them.

Just throwing it out there as another option!