"Honour killing"

[Greythorne]

Even with quotation marks, I really loathe the use of "honour killing".

Talk about misuse of the word "honour"

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/07/shafilea-parents-arrested-suspected-honour-killing

dittany, right, women do have a choice to fight patriarchal oppressive men. I agree wholeheartedly.

So, if you as a woman, have -rightly in my view-chosen to fight this system, what excuses have these women who carry out fgm got for not doing the same as you, then? Have they not got free will, too?

No, I'm ok thanks dittany. You?

I'm not frustrated, just slightly bemused that wamster honestly thinks that she's tumbled to the magic answer generations of brilliant women (and men) couldn't find. It's a touching faith in her own genius, which I suppose could be 'empowering' if it weren't so misplaced.

There seems to be habitual 'confusion' around the concept of systems which privilege certain groups and the behaviour of members of those groups in relation to those systems. Does anyone believe that workers run capitalism by virtue of working in capitalist enterprises?

Oh, dittany, what do you think I think about these men? I think they are scum and I hate them for it. Hating these men does not make me immune to the faults of women, though.

internalizing patriarchal oppression? i understand, but isnt it more then that? women uphold parts of the culture that are not about patriarchal oppression, so isnt it a reflection of the tendency of women to uphold culture in general?

and a lot of the women are educated and capable of thinking for themselves, such as in the link it mentioned a doctor etc,

the women in this country are capable of going against mens wishes, but it seems that when apart from the host country makes them want to preserve all of their culture including the evil bits, due to some percieved sense of loss and wish to preserve continuity.

i cant understand this. i mean i can understand abandoning babies you cant afford to keep, but i cant understand killing your own daughter, that you loved and raised.

Yet individual men clearly do do wrong.

This thread started with a post about a 17 year old girl who was murdered. It's pretty awful that the women who've been discussed most aren't women like her.

nailak - being 'educated', in this country, doens't necessarily mean you've been equipped to challenge patriarchy at all. I don't see why being 'educated' means these women somehow should 'know better'.

I have phrased the previous post in a confusing way; should be 'members of those groups and other non-privileged groups'. The fact that people tolerate/endure a situation doesn't mean they accept or willingly support it.

i mean in cases i know of attempted arranged marriage to someone the girl is not happy with, it has been the mother and female family, the men culturally neglect their islamic role as wali and percieve this to be "womens business", and it is the females that are pushing for it, while the men are not even bothered about their culture, in fact the men think all the stuff to do with the kids is womens business.

Wamster 'choice feminism' sucks.

a) Because it places the blame for misogyny on women.

b) Because it pretends that misogyny or the internalizing of misogyny is a choice.

c) Because it takes the focus off men.

d) Because it isn't feminism and gets in the way of the analysis of patriarchal systems and values.

Sorry, but nailak appears to know about the culture of arranged marriages and I believe her explanation, but I suppose this would be accepting that women can do wrong which, of course, it is not acceptable to say here. But I'll say it anyway: women can do wrong. There.

dittany My opinion is that the majority of men and women are pretty selfish, inconsiderate human beings. I don't see things in black and white as far as they are concerned. It's not simple for me.
You keep insinuating that I dislike women but somehow love men; I simply do not. It's just that I think most people are not up to much, it is not a gender issue, though.

Also, what have my comments about women doing wrong got to do with ending patriarchy? How are the two connected? I don't know how you can end patriarchy. Never said that I did.

Wamster hit the nail on the head. The world isn't black and white, it's stupid to think so

IN reply to your earlier post. Wamster in in 1st world UK (I think) where we are more civilised. She wouldn't have to be in a violent relationship if she chose not to be

wamster - bottom line is, we were talking about a dead 17 year old woman.

Keeping on talking about how women do terrible things, and men are really only bystanders to the arranged marriage culture, is kind of missing the point ... that there is a dead 17 year old woman. Some people, you understand, would feel that a dead female child was reason enough to shut up about how blame-worthy women in general (including, presumably, her, had she been lucky enough to accept her family's insistence and grow up) are.

"She wouldn't have to be in a violent relationship if she chose not to be."

He could choose not to hit and abuse her in the first place. Why aren't these men making the right choices?

You know what Wamster - I linked to a document from Amnesty International that looked at this.

Do you know what it said?

It said that since the concept of women's rights have entered the country in question, and women have been challenging honour killings, there has been a rise in honour killings.

What do you want these women to do?

Would you put your life on the line, or the life of your sisters, against a culture that puts a price on your head? A low price?

Well then you go girlfriend and speak out in the traditional communities of India or Pakistan about women's rights. Just try not to victim blame or blame the women, before the men decide that you are dishonouring their culture will ya?

Fair point. In this day and age there's no excuse. In a country such as this there are facilities for women in violent relationships