"Honour killing"

[Greythorne]

Even with quotation marks, I really loathe the use of "honour killing".

Talk about misuse of the word "honour"

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/07/shafilea-parents-arrested-suspected-honour-killing

SaF it was me who said the clumsy thing. I'm sorry if that upset you. And BTW I didn't misunderstand what you were saying and said so in the same post.

You are not alone - it would appear that I am am an ignorant bigot with a side helping of racism too.

And there I was trying to be very specific after I saw what happened to you by being slightly clumsy.

Anyway - sorry if my comment upset you, it was meant in defence.

Sorry have read back. In fact I said in another post what I understood your post to be about.

dittany Much as I find the whole notion of 'honour' killings abhorrent, much as I dislike religion, much as I dislike all of it, women do take part in the oppression and pain of other women.

Yes, I think we need to drop the idea that the women are in some way responsible because they participate.

We see this phenomenon with FGM too.

It is the colluding in one's own oppression thing by internalizing patriarchal values.

We can apply this to all sorts of misogynistic acts - rape apology for example.

We have no idea of the conditioning these women have been subjected to. Anyway they would become victims themselves if they didn't obey the patriarchal code.

Some women do take part in all kinds of things, absolutely. They collude - but that's up for debate I suppose). The question is, though: are they also making the important decisions?

In the same vein it could be argued that slaves participated in slavery inasmuch as they usually did not unite in revolt against slave owners. And also in the form of some slaves taking over supervisor/foreman roles and thereby assisting in the control of fellow slaves. However, this can hardly be construed as slaves in general being responsible for slavery.

So these women have no choice, then? Well, I think that they do have a choice and some of them make the choice to harm other women.

No disrespect here, but what exactly is the point of feminism if it is just somehow accepted that these women don't have a choice in what they do?

If you genuinely do not believe they have a choice, what are you fighting against exactly? Because the men in the patriarchal system aren't going to come around to the feminist way of thinking, are they?

And if those women have no free will or choice in what they do, then it means just that i.e. they have no self-determination or free will, so I ask in all honesty and without wishing to be rude or insulting, why not just give up the feminism cause?

And it's not saying that it is the women's fault at all, just recognising that without women's co-operation, the patriarchal system would not work; it would just collapse.

dittany no I was not rude or insulting to anybody, it was a genuine question.

I think you are a witterer of the highest order and my view is not obnoxious and no I don't think (or at least I would hope not) mn will reprimand me here as ai have been wholly reasonable and, frankly, your view that women can never do any wrong at all is just not reasonable, put it that way.

I mean, dittany, seriously can women ever do any wrong in your eyes?

Yes, it really is just that simple - women have a choice. Why on earth don't the silly fools just make the right choice? After all, we know women, unlike men, benefit from being totally immune to the pressures of society, culture and education. Glad we sorted that one out.

I am merely pointing out to you that if you genuinely believe women have no choice in the patriarchal system ( I don't share your belief, heck, this probably makes me more of a feminist than you) then, logically:

a, Men won't change the system because it suits them and they like things just as they are ta very much

b, The women are totally oppressed, brainwashed and incapable of acting against those men's wishes.

Isn't it better to accept that some women in the patriarchy have free will because of they do not, any attempt at change will be pointless.

Lucky us. And it only needed one idiot to tell us so.