You don't have to be feminist to post here, but it helps...

[MrsReasonable]

I've noticed that whenever a 'non-feminist' view is brought up, there are occasionally some posts along the lines of 'this is a feminist board, why come here if you aren't...', etc.

Genuine question - is this a feminist board, or a board about feminism? Obviously the majority of posters are feminist, but I'm not sure whether that is because feminists (surprise surprise) like discussing feminism, or because it is seen as a feminist 'safe haven'?

I think it depends on the level of anti-feminism. Some arguments put forward have been discussed over and over for many years and the discussion are easily available online so to bring them up again here really is no different to simple derailing, but I think slightly more complex arguements are treated as valid, if only to discuss to strengthen the arguements against IYSWIM (garbled)

Oh and I meant to add that it is fine to expect an honest (not shit stirring IYKWIM) post to discussed BUT discussion dies not mean agreement. A discussion of a pov may very well mean challenging and disagreeing with it.

True trolling and shit stirring is only effectively dealt with by ignoring the poster, so a post is being taken seriously and responded to surely it has become part of the debate?

It's the intention really.
I've come out with acouple of antifeminist gems myself - thoughtlessness mostly - and have been challenged. But not snidely because I don't go round trying to go Gotcha! at people. Some people are waiting for the chance to pick holes in a gleeful way. That's different to properly engaging and finding holes and arguing ones own point in a respectful way.

i think there is a lot of rhetoric along the lines of ' comin' over 'ere causin' a ruck....'

my experience has been particularly unpleasant in this topic - and not just recently. I would say most of the time

challenge is not embraced, discussion about a different non feminist pov on the subject doesn't happen.

there are genuinley people - i believe quite a lot - who are too intimidated to post here.

I have been catagorically told that becuae i am a woman i MUST be a feminist. I just must. and it was because they said so - not my choice.

I have also been told that this is a topic for feminists only

now if the stance is that anyone can post as long as its good vigorous debate only and doesn't cross the line - fine. wonderful.

however i can tell you that theory and practice will not hold. Apart from those men that post about misandry all the time and target MN and certain MN posters - i don't think there are a lot of posters who would identify themselves as either non feminists - or feminists that disagree with a particular prevailing argument.

I certainly do not believe that the way this topic runs at the moment, that true debate can happen. There are some huge characters that just will not countenance another pov. They cannot accept that other people have a pov which can be debated in an adult manner.

You all think you know how robust a character i am i assume, however quite recently i had to put the computer down for a couple of days because i was feeling bullied...on the feminist section.

I can't even begin to imagine someone who isn't quite as robust, with a tough old leathery MN skin like myself, would feel.

This board activley encourages agreement and doesn't seek to listen to other POVs imvho and extentive experience

You started a thread about a thread? How self-obsesed are you?

For those of you who havent twigged, mrsunreasonable tried to derail my
"Micro mini skirts in primary school" thread which i deliberatly placed in feminism for a feminist discussion. Mrs R came on and blamed me personally for the premature sexualisation of v young girls. I then made a mra remark, but not specifically directed at her/him.

Then i find this! A whole thread she started, semingly to whine about me, behind my back.

GROW UP!

I just tend to translate moaning I see about the feminist section into how I'd view white people moaning about black people having a section of a web forum to discuss their politics, views, community, black authors, news headlines etc. and then picture a white person coming on the board to ask them why they won't tolerate or discuss racist views or why they can't accept racism just doesn't exist anymore.

People coming on here to explore their point of view and those of others are very easy to spot in their genuineness and I think it's great that in recent months we've had an influx of newcomers (trolls excepted) all joining in the debate in that spirit, quite a few of those having come from feminist debate (or baiting) threads in AIBU, and a smaller percentage having been people who had previously hidden this section who are now happy to have a browse and lure unsuspecting people into chicken husbandry and llama porn

foreverwino this isn't about your thread, which makes your 'self-obsessed' jibe rather amusing. Takes one to know one, eh?

I didn't attempt to derail, I just disagreed that children's legs were something sexual, which a lot of other posters agreed with. But let's keep all that in it's own thread.

I really don't get the 'discuss feminist issues from a non-feminist perspective' thing. Everything, every single thing, can be discussed as a feminist issue. (Yes even chickens ). People often come here to discuss something they could discuss elsewhere on MN, for a feminist perspective. Because it's a different way of looking at things from the mainstream. So girls in short skirts in schools will surely have been done in AIBU at some point, removal of body hair will surely have been done in S&B. So why would we discuss these things, in a feminist section, from a non-feminist perspective, when we could discuss them everywhere else from non-feminist perspectives? If S&B discuss how best to remove hair, would it make any sense for me to go in demanding we discuss the feminist stand point on it? Of course not, it's S&B, I could do that here.

Different types of feminism, sure. And there are lots. And they are represented here. But non-feminist, why? What would the point be. The only one I can think of is because people don't want women to talk about feminism and they would rather it was derailed. That is the only reason I can think of.

HeIsSpartacus - I totally agree with your analogy.

I think I've said before, I don't think you have to declare yourself as a feminist to be here, but you do have to want to look at things through a feminist lens. Otherwise we're just having the same conversations as can be had on any other part of MN.

prolesworth, maybe you don't mean it, maybe i;m reading it wrong, and certainly i am going to be accused of the 'poor me' tactic. i know this, i;ve been here long enough.

but i am continuing to feel 'attacked' the language used to even debate this is making me uncomforatble and a little upset.

i just wanted to let you all know. i hate being accused of something and then not replying - i feel like a coward - especially if i am feeling 'got at' or bullied.

i don't understand the ';patronising much' comment at all.

sure prolesworth, i will genuinely debate with you my posts on that thread.

as long as you ask other feminists to back off whilst we do it. what i am not doing is setting myself up to be got at and called names.

Just so you are all aware, as soon as this thread gets worse towards me inparticular, i'm off from this thread

what i am not doing is accepting that i have to be a feminist or look at things from a feminist perspective to post.

i will give my opinion on any thread that isee fit and i will not be told that i can't do this.

what i have noticed in feminist section thread titles is 'a feminist perspective on...x....wanted'

fair enough, i'm not a feminist - i won't post on there - becuase my perspective isn't wanted

"WHY are you talking about this, this is bollocks". That is derailing."

i think it is valid to refer to an argument as bullshit

it was bullshit btw

if i think its bullshit

however bollocks works equally well

the only presumption that feminism is invalid there - is yours. its a big leap - but you made it

from custy thinks that saying piv sex = power and control is bullshit

to custy thinks feminism is bullshit

but y'know - out of context when you attribute remarks to me - these things can happen...easy mistake

"Would you like to go back over your posts on this section recently and see why they might have elicited a less than friendly response people? Because you have certainly posted on here recently with things along the lines of 'it's all bollocks, you're all mad, the feminists on here are a bunch of nutters, I hate this section of MN'. Then when you get told to fuck off, you call it bullying? "

wow...just wow.

i never said any of that

i did say the argument was bullshit

the argument was insane

where i have been wrong i have apologised. But i tell you what prole, you are being genuinley unfair towards me.

and its ok that other posters are too - becuase i said the argument was bullshit - its ok to be told to fuck off

i mean that perfectly fine

do feminists apologise or is that a presumption of the giving away of power

perhaps you should debate that through your feminist only lense

"what i am not doing is accepting that i have to be a feminist or look at things from a feminist perspective to post.
i will give my opinion on any thread that isee fit and i will not be told that i can't do this."

which is fair enough, as long as you don't post that a feminist viewpoint or poster is nuts/insane/loopy/needs-to-be-shouted-down-for-the-good-of-the-rest-of-us... and if you accept that most people on the feminist board are likely to have a feminist viewpoint and may disagree with you!

i'm aware that i posted a similar message to the one in the OP in reply to wamster on another thread but i really don't understand why anyone would argue that the normal/accepted/mainstream viewpoint is automatically superior and doesn't need defended on the feminist board? surely the whole point of this board is to allow discussion from a different viewpoint?

you're not exactly a delicate shrinking violet yourself, your first response on that same thread was:
"christ no.
jesus fucking christ this topic gets on my nerves sometimes."

which i read as meaning that i was being ridiculous to even have written my OP - but i didn't reply to you saying that i felt bullied, i just ignored you

great, i;m glad y post didn't intimidate you and i am even more pleased that you also agree with my previous post about me being a well worn leathery thick skinned old mumsnetter (not meant in a patronising way - and not sure how this could be meant in a patronising way except to myself - and i;m not in the habit of doing that)

there shouldn't therefore be the presumtion that i don't feel intimidated/got at/ bullied shoudl there? i mean i do feel that way, and my feelings are valid aren't they? they are not your feelings or even how you feel about me. they are my feelings

i never said a poster was insane

i said the argument was insane

and when re=posting about it - i even qualified it

you are indeed entitled to your feelings. but i would have thought that everyone else is entitled to reply to you in similar tones to the ones you use?

if i had chosen to reply to your first post on that thread it would probably have been along the lines of "gee thanks. fuck off then why don't you?" because that to me would have been the tone you set...

Seems very much to be a feminist board, some sort of understanding that all discussions start on the assumption that everyone here is a feminist and that there is a common agreement on teh definition of feminist. And if you don't already understand and agree to that - whatever it is - you're not really welcome.

Which is fine. People make it whatever they want, I suppose.

I think that people expect the feminists to be uniquely welcoming to people who tell them that what they're discussing is nuts, it's insane to bother to discuss it and that the whole topic gets on their nerves sometimes.

Go over to AIBU or S&B and see what reception you get if you tell them that that topic gets on their nerves sometimes. I expect it will be very similar to the reception you'll get here.

I just don't understand why it's surprising that people will react with aggression when addressed with aggression. Or is it because feminists are supposed to constantly turn the other cheek so that they can't be accused of being stereotypically aggressive feminists?

People don't have to have a feminist viewpoint. But if they don't and they want to discuss things from a normal mainstream POV, that can delay the discussion that the rest of us want to have from a feminist perspective. It can get a bit wearing to have to keep covering the same ground over and over again - some of us have reached G,H, M, N etc. and needing to keep going back to A or B can be frustrating and make you feel that you're not getting any further in developing ideas, but I'm happy to do it if there's a tiny chance that I'm talking to someone who might be interested in going some of the way. For someone who wants to keep the discussion on pre-alphabet terms though, I have no patience. (And I'm not talking about you Custy I'm talking about the legions of tedious MRA trolls.)

Umm.. I was met with aggression last week and accused of being a man/troublemaker because in relation to court cases I had the audacity to suggest that it shouldn't be forgotten that women/mothers can sometimes be violent. That doesn't make me antifeminist. The truth is I'm a woman, I've being posting on MN for a year or so now, I was abused by my mother as a child and spend my life hobbling about on crutches as a result.

As far as I'm aware this is a public site by parents for parents that has a feminist board open to all members. As long as posters remain respectful of one another the guidelines are to keep intervention to a minimum and "let the conversation flow." Perhaps those who want to have an exclusive space devoted to a feminist prospective and developing ideas would be better off starting their own site with their own rules and a closed forum.

ChristinedePizan wrote:
"I didn't mean that's what you think, but that's why 'non-feminist' views are challenged. It's not a fight club, it's a forum for discussing feminism."

It reads like a soap box for spewing bile at men.

This thread has just come up in active convos and I'm working very late, so, I thought I'd post while it's quiet.

There have recently been posters in this section recently who are on the wind-up. Some of them have I believe been banned? Some of them are, quite obviously, only interested in taking the piss out of MN as a whole. This is not nice for any of us and it certainly puts me on edge. I think it puts other people who post regularly here on edge too. I think people who should get on ok are getting into rucks because of miscommunication.

I've come to the conclusion I agree with radical feminism and I'm comfortable describing myself as a radical feminist. I don't think this section is scary or unwelcoming. I can sometimes understand why people do. But I really like MN and I like reading what people say who post in AIBU or Chat or Education or wherever, and I'd really like to read what those people say about feminism too. So, um ... could we bear in mind that there are probably people reading this and laughing because they are on school holidays and just want to stir up a ruck, and they don't care who argues with who so long as there's a ruck? We really don't need to fall for that.