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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Was Bristol Palin raped?

943 replies

darleneoconnor · 20/06/2011 11:16

according to this bristol palin was so drunk when she conceived her son that she doesn't remember having sex.

Sounds like rape to me.

Then she was basically 'forced' to marry her rapist? WTF! Sometimes America sounds more like the middle east!

Quite a few forums are discussing this, with some

disgusting rape myths on this forum

OP posts:
alexpolismum · 26/06/2011 10:59

"Whether the perpetrator is brought to justice for it often is"

so true, and it's this that shapes prejudices

Hullygully · 26/06/2011 11:01

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AliceWhirled · 26/06/2011 11:01

Everyone's experiences colours their own views. No-one lives in a vacuum with an static mind.

Hullygully · 26/06/2011 11:02

Indeed Alice - to an extent. For some it's greater than others.

AwesomePan · 26/06/2011 11:03

and about the maid being believed, the NY police immediatley considered ther to be a case to answer, and pulled him off a plane only hours later before he could escape.

MJISMARRYJOTTER · 26/06/2011 11:05

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DontCallMePeanut · 26/06/2011 11:05

"There are plenty of people lining up to question women's versions of their abuse. It will happen to them all along the way. It's not like feminists need to be the ones that do it.

And yes sometimes there will be someone that lies. But there will be many many that aren't. And many many that will never mention it because they know the reaction they will face."

Agreed, agreed... and... oh... Agreed!

For me, the key quote is where BP says she felt like her virginity was "stolen". Stolen. For those that don't know what that means, stolen means "taken without consent". Consent... the key thing in defining whether sex is rape or not. This may be BP's way of articulating what happened, by means of avoiding a lawsuit. Or maybe she can't bring herself to admit she was raped (if that's the case) But it's a great, big, gaping possibility.

But yet, we've been inundated with "I know someone who lied" yada yada, for whatever reason. On such a thread, to me, it just feels like a case of "let's not believe the woman, here".

alexpolismum · 26/06/2011 11:07

Fair point, Hully. (are you omoyenis btw? Just from what I've seen you say on a few threads)

Hullygully · 26/06/2011 11:08

Not me, guv.

alexpolismum · 26/06/2011 11:10

Good point about "stolen" DontCallMePeanut. And it's not uncommon for a woman who has been raped to deny that it was rape as a way of coping with what has happened to her.

Hullygully · 26/06/2011 11:10

What is all this "on such a thread" crap? Threads on the Fem Board are not sacrosanct holies where a party line must be trod. It sounds like the bloody seventies. Excuse me while I get my dungarees out and unearth my DMs.

Hullygully · 26/06/2011 11:11

alex - have you read the whole thread?

alexpolismum · 26/06/2011 11:16

no, just the last few pages. Far too long!

DontCallMePeanut · 26/06/2011 11:23

"On such a thread". We have a thread, which is asking whether a young woman was possibly raped, yet we're being given examples of stories where women have apparently lied about rape. Now, I know it rarely happens, BUT the media already places an emphasis on women who have lied. Do we really need that in the media?

I believe BP's version of events. Whether it was rape or not, we can't possibly know. But she's articulated it in such a way which makes me feel it WAS rape... That's a feeling, but it's not set in stone.

MJISMARRYJOTTER · 26/06/2011 11:25

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floyjoy · 26/06/2011 11:27

Ages ago I posted saying that I thought discussing Bristol Palin in this way was inappropriate. If we want to know what happened we should read her account in the book (not promotional extracts). The book offers her account, not ours. By debating Bristol?s account (from the various angles on this thread), the language she uses, her background, you undermine Bristol?s authority to own her own narrative. Maybe she will describe the events differently in the future, use different language, but she has given voice to her experience and that should stand alone. She owns that experience, it is her right to tell us about it, not ours. Women?s voices are silenced enough, their narratives ignored or questioned. Should posters on the feminist section do this, too?

But on the broader argument on the thread?

A feminist would see rape in the context of a patriarchal society. The prevalence of rape, the consequences for the raped and the rapist, etc. is derived from the patriarchal structure. The feminist position is to challenge that patriarchy and the belief system that it promotes.

In our society women who have been raped are sometimes not believed ?by the police, juries, friends, the media. We know this ? the patriarchy wants us to know this. Newspapers report false allegations of rape (some of which of course may not be false anyway), cases that collapse. They do not tell us how rare this is. Newspapers do not report rapes that are not reported to the police because the woman thinks that even if the police believe her, that there is deemed to be enough evidence to charge the rapist, a jury might not believe her. We are supposed to know that if raped we might not be believed.

A feminist challenges this view by necessity. By focusing on women who lie about being raped you simply support the dominant view. This is political. Taking the position that a woman who says she was raped was raped runs counter to the patriarchial world view that indoctrinates/indoctrinated us.

Right-wing media like to focus on how white people can be the victims of racism, to encourage white readers/viewers to think, ?Black people can be racist, too. It?s not fair to focus on racism by whites against blacks, whites are victims, too.? That totally distorts how racism operates in society, how it is directed against people of minority ethnic groups. It undermines people from minority ethnic groups who have been the victims of racism and misrepresents how power functions in society.

It is not possible to state that no white person has ever been racially abused by a person from a minority ethnic group. But to discuss one incident of that abuse and hold it up as an example, is to distort the reality and play into the hands of white racists. Apply that to the ?some women lie about rape? view and see how by presenting examples, forming an argument around them, you are playing into the hands of a society that stacks the odds against a rape victim being believed. From a political point of view, that is not feminist.

Macaroona · 26/06/2011 11:28

I hope SGM comes back. She posted some interesting points about why Bristol may not feel able to call the experience rape.

I agree that 'stolen' is probably a way for her to articulate her feelings without making a direct accusation of rape.

She does also talk about decisions she made though - whether she means drinking too much or having sex isn't clear.

AwesomePan · 26/06/2011 11:29

DCMP - yes the question was couched in a 'possibly raped' way, and the prompt was 'I think she was'.

The divergence here I think is if posters only say 'yes possibly' then they are castigated as rapists-apologisers, and much worse. Which I and a few other reject.

dittany · 26/06/2011 11:29

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dittany · 26/06/2011 11:31

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Macaroona · 26/06/2011 11:33

Thank you for clarifying Dittany. I don't want to say she was definitely raped, but I accept that it is a possibility. If she can't remember consenting, it doesn't mean she didn't, but she feels tricked and duped - saying her virginity was stolen.

IMO Levi is the only one who knows definitively if he raped her, and it's unlikely he will divulge any more than he has to in his book released later this year.

AwesomePan · 26/06/2011 11:34

I think it was karma some time last night - 'if you don't believe her then you are a woman and child hater'. but am now out the door.

Macaroona · 26/06/2011 11:35

Can we move on and discuss without accusations of disbelieving her flying around now? It's seriously derailed the discussion enough.

DontCallMePeanut · 26/06/2011 11:35

I agree there, MJ, BUT the element of applying stories of "women lying" runs the risk of falling into the hands of misogynists, or those who already doubt the validity of rape claims. These threads do show up outside of MN itself, you know. All it takes is someone googling something about women lying about rape, finding the right phrase, and bingo... Misogynists heaven

MJISMARRYJOTTER · 26/06/2011 11:38

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