Was Bristol Palin raped?

[darleneoconnor]

according to this bristol palin was so drunk when she conceived her son that she doesn't remember having sex.

Sounds like rape to me.

Then she was basically 'forced' to marry her rapist? WTF! Sometimes America sounds more like the middle east!

Quite a few forums are discussing this, with some

disgusting rape myths on this forum

dittany Sat 25-Jun-11 23:43:46
It's political but probably not in the sense you see it Pan. This isn't about right wing politics, this is about misogyny and woman-hatred and the politics of that.

The women in the Palin family are a lighting rod for a lot of misogyny that people try to keep hidden in other arenas.

Dittany...Sarah Palin is an unpleasant,nasty, Margaret Thatcher type woman.She did nothing for women and Sarah Palin will do nothing for women.

this may be the case reeling, but I suspect dittany's point may be that latent misogyny is being expressed towards the Palins because they are easy targets and it isn't their/SP's politics that are being attacked it is their gender,esp. as an influencial family.

imaging in this country a prominent black politician getting undue flak, not for his behaviour which is no worse or better than others, but the racism finds a channel.

am sure dittany will correct all of that, and say that's not what she meant at all, when she returns.

Pan, I know Bristol hasn't actually said she was raped but many women in similar situations also refuse to put the name to their experience. It's not at all unusual. But just because the victim hasn't named it such, doesn't make it less so in law. The account in the book says that she feels like her virginity was "stolen" and that to me suggests non consent which is the key as to whether it is rape or not. In less emotive language I guess she'd be happy to say he "took advantage" of her.

As far as I am concerned the main reason for believing her is that she is describing a scenario that is so very common and happens to hundreds of young women every day but that most don't speak about. If she were lying, she'd be taking a huge risk that one of the many people who were there that night would deny it. That would be far to risky to her mother's campaign.

Well, for me there are too many massive holes in your position,

re 'it's very common, so we have to belive her, and if you don't do that you're a woman-and-child hater',

re she says she 'feels her virginity was stolen' which I would suggest is deliberately confusing - it actually says nothing.

re risks of lying, the only people in the tent were the two of them?,

re she hasn't put a name to it, this is common so she must have been raped.

I have no reason at all the believe or hope that she was raped, but I do suggest that dittany's saracasm of "always doubt a woman's story even in the FS" doesn't hold water.
As I say, I am not prepared to be forced into a straight-jacket of 'believe or be damned' and I'd think most other people won't be either.

I hope she wasn't raped, but her story is consistent and all too common. There are other witnesses apart from her and Levi as they went on the trip with several friends, any of whom could come out and say she wasn't that drunk, he didn't bring the alcohol or encourage her to drink it, they never had sex that night or even that they never went camping that day. She may be naive and easily manipulated but I doubt she's daft enough to make up a story that could so easily be torn to shreds by conflicting accounts from the people there that night.

Nobody has to believe her but it's all to common to disbelieve teenage girls in similar circumstances. I have never told anyone about my assault as I knew no one would believe me. Many other girls are put in the same position. As a society I think we need to ask ourselves why we are so keen to assume that young women who experience these things are lying. Why are we so keen to protect the men that hurt them?

The men who rape tend to be serial attackers. They get away with it because their victims never speak out and when they do, their accounts aren't believed. If we want to stop rape and sexual assault we have to start with believing the victims when they are brave enough to speak about it. They are almost certainly telling the truth.

YY dittany. You'd expect to see all sorts of disagreements and debate on this board but on violence against women, rape, assault and whether we can believe the victims I would have thought we'd have a broad consensus.

This isn't really properly on the subject, but I was unaware that Sarah Palin had a daughter called Bristol. When I saw the thread title I thought it meant someone in the UK city of Bristol with the surname Palin had been raped. (I know this doesn't add much to the discussion)

Aside from that, I like dittany's previous post. So true about belief - just look at the Strauss Kahn case and the way the woman was immediately assumed to be making it up.

of course all you indicate is true, dittany. Incl. the fact that I am not, nor ever will be, a woman. My 'doesn't hold water' bit refers to thiscase in particular, not the universal state of not being believed. Sorry that wasn't clear.And there will be a few features of BP's account that other women will recognise, such as the potent alcohol-and sex experience, esp. if it's for the first time.(with both apparently).

so, no I am not 'calling her a liar' whatsoever ( partly because she is being deliberately ambiguous, from what is reported), just refusing to be corralled into one way of thinking about this episode, and accepting a particular judgement if I don't automatically agree with the OP.

alex - I didn't read, or speak to anyone at all who immediatley assumed the maid was making it up - but I wan't around on here when that happened so someone here could have produced that gem. I know the French were exercised by how they viewed the judicial process but hat is a differnt issue to her not being believed

and so they shouldn't be aligning themselves with hateful misogynists from any political hue, and I don't think I am doing that, nor promoting a misogynist's agenda. I am sure BP has been heavily advised about what she can and can't say in her book - lawyers will be crawling all over it.

Pan - I read a lot that implied she was making it up, and where I live (Greece) almost everyone I've talked to has said it was a conspiracy against Strauss Kahn in his capacity as IMF chief. They laugh and say things like "Why would a man in his position do something like that?" as though rapes can only be committed by scruffy homeless poor men, and any other situation means the woman is lying. I've seen the same sort of thing when a wealthy doctor, pillar of the community type man was on trial for rape here in Greece - people automatically said "No, not him, he's not the type, he's a family man, he's a doctor, he'd never commit rape"

That's the thing that pisses me off about this thread too.

The discussion of whether the situation is and isn't rape had the potential to be an interesting one, and shed light on rape myths and how they are dealt with.

But straight away the idea of women lying was introduced.

For sure there's a context that can't be ignored. But that isn't just re selling book, or the need to behave in a particular way due to the surrounding party politics. There is also the context of a society where women are accused of making things up and lying about their abuse. This isn't something made up of this board. This is something discussed broadly. Just google it. It's in the mainstream press, both left and right wing.

The first time I told anyone about my experiences was on this very board. NCed of course. And I did it here because I knew people would step in and say they believed me. And they did. Many people. No-one asked about the events at all. No questions asked. And that is hugely powerful.

There are plenty of people lining up to question women's versions of their abuse. It will happen to them all along the way. It's not like feminists need to be the ones that do it.

And yes sometimes there will be someone that lies. But there will be many many that aren't. And many many that will never mention it because they know the reaction they will face.

alex - that wasn't my experience in the UK, and the people I know and talked to about it. It reeked of 'powerful man indulging his fantasies at the cost of a powerless woman because he thought he could get away with it ( as he had done previously) ' sort of observation.

and of course sexual assault is never determined by prof. or economic status. Whether the perpetrator is brought to justice for it often is though.

What pisses me off about this thread is that the op clearly states: Was Bristol Palin raped?

Those of us that said, no idea, we weren't there with BRISTOL AND LEVI, and she hasn't called it rape, and let her own her own experience in the way she sees fit, have been accused of rape-apology and misogyny.

Had the thread title said: In general are women stuffed when it comes to rape? I have no doubt the answer would have been a simple yes, of course they are.

What also pisses me off is that far too many posters let their own experiences colour their world views.

And lastly, that they are unpleasant and bullying which is unnecessary and helpful.

unhelpful even