Resisting femininity experiment - who's in?

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

I was thought-provoked by the 'I'm a feminist but....' thread, particularly Dittany's posts, in which she talked about women who choose not to 'perform femininity'.

I posted on the other thread that I hugely object to all that bikini-line business but do still shave my legs. Am not sure why I do this, so I think I'm going to stop and see how it feels. It felt like a major issue when I was 20 or so but I actually suspect not shaving them now would make me feel more, rather than less, confident.

So I wondered if anyone else was thinking about giving up any beauty practices or other elements of compulsory femininity and would like to do it together and see how it feels.

this is not a competition - if you decide after a day you hate it and can't live without it, fine, but it would be really interesting to hear about, and I think it could advance our understanding of how this all works.

anyone else in?

btw, I am in a vile mood today so if anyone wants to come along to the thread and tell us we are just falling into the trap of thinking all feminists have to have hairy legs, or that actually they wax everything and are a still better feminist than meeeee, I will tell them to fuck off because if you don't 'get' this I can't be bothered explaining, either you get it or you don't

I have never noticed you looking ungroomed at meet-ups MummyBerryJuice. I did, however, notice the lovely perfume you were wearing.

Some aspects of performing femininity are much nicer than others. Messing around with nice-smelling things is an extremely pleasant activity but I smelled an enormous rat when a friend went for a bikini wax and described it as being 'pampered'....

hear hear AyeRobot.

MBJ, I am the same re feeling lack grooming is a personal failure

I was made to feel that I wasn't a proper girl (was always put in the 'tomboy' box when I was little)

Only recently have I realised what's actually going on here.

lack of I meant

yy re "pampering" myth, seth

LOVING this thread. Especially the 'thought-provoking' (bless them) posts by Moondog and Carmana. I've read this elsewhere, but their comments are the equivalent of someone walking into a PhD philosophy seminar and saying 'Have you ever considered that the blue you see, is not the blue I see' and then stepping back, and expecting our brains to explode.

So men remove hair in Arab countries? Men in the West are conditioned to use grooming products too. WhoEVER said that the patriarchy didn't constrain men too, in both the groming products they can and CAN'T use?. And, have we ever considered that leg hair just, like, looks really ugly? I, for one, am relieved to have this definitively cleared up by a Martian, who has not been exposed to the norms of this culture. OH NO, WAIT!

Keep it up MD and Carmana - I need the laughs!

Why is ok on men but not women?

I've said it 3 times - hair under the arms makes you smell more - it's probably to attract the opposite sex if you think about it - so by not shaving you are giving off smells that will attract the opposite sex.

Plus, and I'm no expert, wasn't hair on the body to protect us from the the cold weather? Haven't we evolved a bit since the ice age?

Humans adapt and evolve - hairy legs on women serves no purpose. Men don't shave their legs because they can't be bothered - women ( in general ) like to look good, and smooth skin feels nicer to touch - the thought of running my fingers up a hairy leg does nothing for me - ( women don't really touch mens legs.)

So it's sexual, hygiene, and just wanting to look nice.

And bloody hell does it matter?

I touch DH's legs, they're one of his best features.

"I do think it is conditioning in a way though. If you were a man, having a bald head and a beard would hardly be noteworthy."

true. totally true. and yet the thought of letting my facial hair grow makes me want to cry.

how can I know that I only see hairlessness as being necessary because society says so and still be unable to even consider breaking free of that?

why shouldn't I take off my wig, show off my scalp, throw away the tweezers and be big, beardy and proud?

because I just can't. I can't. It's too strong.

And I know I don't have to I'm not arguing. I simply find it fascinating how strongly I am - as you say - conditioned. How strongly we all are. Even when I know what it is, I can't change it.

and I wonder how many of you would actually let grow a stunning beard and tash like I've got, or whether that would be too much? do you think you could? have a beard I mean? in the name of feminism? be honest now.

'Women don't really touch men's legs'!! BRILLIANT!

Thank you Seth

I make a special effort for MN meet-ups, you know all the left-wing liberal, Guardian reading Harpies wouldn't accept me as one of their own if not brushed and polished!

Carmina - deep and insightful, as always.

Just seen this thread - great stuff

It's funny how all people know what things they are "supposed" to do, and those things are policed in a variety of ways, and people who don't conform know they are not doing so. Because of the huge volume of things that women are supposed to do to fully conform, many women feel slightly (or even very) ill at ease / guilty / not good about themselves a lot of the time.

You can primp and preen to the nth degree and still there's something that you aren't doing...

Interestingly though at an individual level I really think that many people don't really care. Most men I know think that very high heels are stupid. Most men I know think women look better with little/no makeup. Most women I know would not say to a friend that they find them revolting for not always wearing makeup, or that the fact they only shave their legs every 3 days makes them grotesque. In real life we all rub along, but we all know what's expected, it's the media and we put the pressure on ourselves.

I've never been very high maintenence... But when i stopped doing stuff nothing happened. When I stopped plucking my eyebrows the sky didn't fall in. When I stopped wearing heels to work I didn't get fired. When I went without deoderant when I was pregnant and BF I didn't lose any friends or have people edge away from me on the tube... So it's all very complicated. What I wish is that more women had the confidence to do these things when they fancied it - and not to feel like they have to, every day, that they are not able to face the world without it, that they will be ugly, that they won't feel as confident and so on.

Anyway on an unrelated note, I went to Brent X the other day... Without a bra on I had my reasons that weren't to do with this thread. But I couldn't access a bra and thought fuck it. And no-one flinched, and no-one batted an eyelid, and it was fine.

So I guess I say to people who do it - see how you feel - but notice how others react. 99% won't even notice. The ones who do - who genuinely care that a stranger on the tube has hair on her legs - aren't worth worrying about.

carmina...you do know that men and women were created equal don't you ?

that hair is hair whether it is adorning a man or a woman

that running your hands up and down a person's legs is a nice thing to do, whether that is a man or a woman

so if there is hair on a womans legs it is "offensive" but on a man's "not"

you haven't convinced me with your arguments, but mostly, I don't think you convince anyone

Sorry I can't help it

"I've said it 3 times - hair under the arms makes you smell more - it's probably to attract the opposite sex if you think about it - so by not shaving you are giving off smells that will attract the opposite sex."

So if the argument is that grooming is about being attractive, then women definitely shouldn't be shaving their armpits?

I don't go along with all this smell masking anyway. they have done study after study which shows that people's natural smell gives all sorts of clues about their genetic makeup and health and so on, and smell is fundamental in selecting a mate... And if the smells are all masked then it goes wonky...

Personally I hate aftershaves and smelly deoderants and things on men, I prefer them to smell of nothing / their natural smell. I know that DH likes the way that I smell too

Oh and he has lovely legs

Shaving arms?!

If Carmina doesn't like to touch mens legs that's her loss.
My DH has fantastic and v. hairy legs that are very touchable and he is more than happy to touch my hairy legs but then he's not one of those weird types with an aversion to perfectly natural body hair.

rofl re philosophy seminar CharityGirl!

Hecate - no, I couldn't grow a beard in the name of feminism right now
I would do it to rescue a baby from a burning building though, if it would help; so it's a combination of 'I really don't want to do this' and 'the pay-off wouldn't be that great.'

I was reading some comments on one of the blogs, I think it was IBTP, that were much more 'feminists SHOULD stop shaving their legs, yes it's hard but revolution is always hard' and I really don't think that is the right approach - one woman not shaving her legs risks having less positive impact than the negative impact on her. In military strategy you would work out what the costs of a move would be as well as the likely rewards, surely we should do the same when fighting the patriarchy?!

Joining in with the ROFL-ing - thanks Carmina, I am tired and still stuck at my desk and will be for hours and this is cheering me up.

Let me just see if I have everything straight:

Having body hair = being like a child, not having it = being adult

Having body hair makes you smell, in order to attract the opposite sex - in some circs; in others, that smell is disgusting and unattractive, so unattractive as to be ill-mannered

feminists are lesbians (ok no one on this thread has said this) - but there is a significant contingent of feminists on this thread who seem to fancy men who smell like men, rather than like perfume, which seems pretty hetero to me

they say they fancy these "men", to whom they are married, yet they will not ever under any circumstances want to touch their legs

I have a lot to learn, and a lot of growing up to do I think.

Loving charitygirl's contributions to this thread.

I'm not sure actually Vezzie, it might be that we are allowed to not shave our legs (though that will make us ugly and smelly of course), we're just not allowed to mention it.

my forearm hair goes a lovely blondy/golden colour in summer

it's one of the things I love about summer