What does someone actually mean when they say "I'm not a feminist"?

[TheFeministParent]

For me it means that either:
a) they are a man
b) they think feminist means militant lesbian
c) they think feminism has no relevance.

"Nothing that was said by feminists about women don't want to call themselves feminists, came anywhere near that level of misogyny."

Dittany What an amazingly flawed argument - just because it isn't anywhere near the same level, doesn't mean it is anymore acceptable - no matter how born out of anger or frustration.

If something is insulting and degrading, it is not OK, just because it isn't as bad as something someone else has done.

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"So despite feminism being the only equality game in town, would you rather not participate because you see feminism as hypocritical and not equal enough?

Do you participate in other political movements, even when they have no interest in equality or even promote inequality? As long as they do what they claim to do?"

vesuvia Other political movements believe in equality - it is just not their primary stated aim. However, as I said in my original post, I tend not to participate in political movements as such, because I have to find one that actually does what it claims to do and fits in with my personal belief system.

Even if there was one, I would probably not join it, because as I said, I think that putting yourself in a box can lead to a lack of being able to see the bigger picture (not always of course).

Why do I have to lay claim to being a feminist in order to believe in equality?

I wouldn't call myself an animal rights or environmental activist, it does not mean that I don't care about animal welfare or the environment and do things everyday to improve these things, even in small ways. I don't see why I have to call myself a feminist to believe in and fight for equality.

I have yet* to find one

This "I don't like to be labelled" strikes me as quite juvenile tbh, like feisty teenagers who insist on their individuality, not having noticed that the worldview they are expressing can be described as "fascist", "liberal", "conservative", "racist", "communist" etc.

People are very afraid of labels aren't they? As if by being given a label, they will have to go and live somewhere with all the other people with the same label and marry them and work with them, or something.

Do people feel that labels will stop them being individuals or something?

Or perhaps they feel that if they have a lable, people will attribute to them, views they don't hold?

vesuvia Sun 02-Jan-11 23:06:53
custardo wrote - "I believe that when society divides itself into smaller ideological groups this divides society and therefore the power of the people to create change."

I think you are implying that is a shortcoming of feminism alone. I think that is a description of all political movements and parties.

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I am not implying this

LeninGrad Sun 02-Jan-11 22:55:10
What do you think it's due to Custardo? Because from where I'm sitting it's a whole load of white men in charge and they could effect change if they wanted to.

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I agree. I don't agree that white rich men = subjugation of women alone. yes they could affect change in this area, they could affect change in lots of areas

Edam, I suppose the finer details being sorted out later was a pat on the head to lots of people who were subsequently disillusioned by the inevitable power and corruption that ensues.

I Don't know about the labour party, but believe you wholeheartedly. Politics/money/ corruption.

I'm in my mid 20s. I went to an all girls school and I would say that most of my contemparies would have described themselves as "not feminists." Including, at the time, myself.

This is because we saw feminists as joyless, men hating, hairy lesbians who saw the world in black and white terms like "All Men Are Rapists" and thought that a male colleague telling you that you looked nice equaled sexual assault.

We also wanted men to hold doors open for us and buy us dinner or drinks. On top of this we knew ourselves to be equal to men in every way and never thought that our sex would hold us back from any job.

"On top of this we knew ourselves to be equal to men in every way and never thought that our sex would hold us back from any job."

Ah, the sweet optimism of youth! I presume you think differently now?

At my school the girls that weren't feminists didn't really give a shit about anything, they were apathetic and vacuous.

I agree with the poster who said that feminism wasn't relevant in youth, or didn't seem it, as there were no real signs...it's only later when you have a family or suffer that first knock back in your career that you really notice how feminism is so needed.

And to Oracle....wow what a disservice to all of your children. Hoping your dd marries well...do people really speak like this?

Put at its very very simplest I cannot call myself a feminist for as long as other woman who do call themselves feminists think it is OK to make derogatory comments about woman who chose not to call themselves a feminist.

TBH in my day to day life (and on here) I see far more self proclaimed feminists bitching about the choices other woman make than attacking the perceived sources of inequality.

"TBH in my day to day life (and on here) I see far more self proclaimed feminists bitching about the choices other woman make than attacking the perceived sources of inequality."

Examples, please?

Are you saying you won't call yourself a feminist until all other feminists get it right all the time? Do you applky this rule to every other group? You won't be a member of a political party, or faith or golf club until all the other members are perfect?

I don't seem to notice feminists attacking other women, I think some (me included) get very upset about people claiming that feminism is too narrow, can't abide 'isms' or whatever.
It has been said time and time again that in order to provoke change one must be concentrated. I recently listened to a program on Ford motorcars and their change of system which effected a massive change in their profits. The sexist 'all men around the virtual table' I excused for the other wisdoms. Basically Ford was rather old fashioned and was losing money and so the entire thinking was changed, many didn't want the change and even though profits were down they were entrenched in their own methods. In order to change they had to focus on what wasn't working, they couldn't be wishy washy, they couldn't change everything all at once....

Neither can people, feminists simply want equality for both genders....and we will all benefit from this.

"Ah, the sweet optimism of youth! I presume you think differently now?"

Yes and then again no. I still know myself/women to be equal to men in every way.

Since leaving uni none of my friends have found they have missed out on jobs because they are women. In fact, more of my female friends have been able to get jobs than my male friends. My male friends have found it much, much harder to get employment and my female friends have ended up with some fantastic jobs.

At my first workplace after leaving school I found a lot of sexual discrimination. It was a real boys club. I was never in a position to get a promotion but it was openly acknowledged that you needed to be a male and a friend of the boss to get ahead. Or at least the wife of a friend of a boss. It didn't ever bother me but it probably would have if I had wanted one of the promotions. TBH I just assumed it was because we were in China and you can get away with this crap here and I just thought of the men as pathetic dinosaurs who would never get away with that this behaviour in the UK.

'One of the reasons that I avoid some feminist discussions and activities is that I enjoy debates, but not polemic arguments, and the difference matters to me enormously.'

I said that earlier, I don't believe that it is all feminists who are rude, derogatory, insulting and given to targeting individuals who disagree with them with a view to smashing them into dust.
It is some individual's personal style of argument, and I think that they would have the same flaws if they were passionate S&B posters IYSWIM.
So I will engage in debate if I think that's what's happening and disengage, or not start in the first place if I think the poster is a polemic debater.
Nothing to do with not wanting a fight, or being passive. I just don't see the point in wasted effort and I have always chosen my fights carefully.

I was quite serious with my d} I think alot of women have a very negative view of feminists as strident, hatchet faced, kill joys, manhaters who think any woman who does anything for any man is oppressed. It is an image perpetrated by the media and others and is so far from the truth as to be laughable, but nonetheless persists.
Back to Rebecca West:
'I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.'

Sorry... I should also add that I know that women are disadvantaged hugely economically and in the work place as soon as they have children.

I am also aware that we have a long way to go before we can truly say that men and women are equal. It won't happen when "womens" jobs are still seen as the soft or crap option. It won't happen when there is any kind of pay gap for the same jobs. It certainly won't happen until a man and a woman can both run for US president and the sex of the candidate isn't mentioned nor is there any commentary on what the female wears.

Hope....actually I think that this is an easy route but not the only route into feminism. Surely if you look at the current cabinet, the top jobs(less than 13% of women occupy these positions) or listen to a radio four program on business you can't deny the need for feminism...or the invisible women throughout the middle east, or the victims of femicide?

Are these not worth noting, rather than I'm alright Jill?