What does someone actually mean when they say "I'm not a feminist"?

[TheFeministParent]

For me it means that either:
a) they are a man
b) they think feminist means militant lesbian
c) they think feminism has no relevance.

[Tortington]

i think the feminist ideology doesn't fit with me socially or politically.

That isn't to say that i don't recognise that some women are subjugated, that some don't have the freedom they ought to. That some are subject to violence and rape. That some suffer terrible things daily. That the law even in this civilised country isn't adequate.

I do recognise these things. I am not ignorant of them.

But i do not think that this is due to male domminance.

I do not like the male/female split simplification.

I think that many people are subject to horrific things daily, i think that both men and women and children are subjected to horrific things daily.

I believe that when society divides itself into smaller ideological groups this divides society and therefore the power of the people to create change.


I have posted on such threads as these before. I have posted my views before and can i say that i am more than happy to debate my views on this subject as it is very rare these days that we get a stimulating debate on Mumsnet. However my experiences before have not been pleasant when debating this subject. So please recognise that these are my views and i understand that you may not agree with them. However i ask that you do respect that they are mine and debate them pleasantly if you want to at all!

[vesuvia]

custardo wrote - "I do not like the male/female split simplification."

Are your political beliefs based on a different split e.g. rich/poor?

Do you regard any such split that you do "like" as being less of a simplification than male/female?

[Whitethorn]

When anyone says to me that 'I am not a feminist' I ask them if they are ok with not getting equal pay for equal work then.
Its not about being womanly or fulfilling a wife/mother role.

For me women who see this brings to mind stupid preening, fey women who are frightened of appearing too strident in front of men.

As for work being female friendly, its still not and it will never be because its geared towards achieving results in the workplace whereas most mothers who work are trying to achieve results at home and at work - therefore they just don't mix unless something gives.

[mollycuddles]

I would tend to say that the cause of most of the trauma to people, male and female in the world is capitalism. Many of those at the top are white men but I feel the split between those who have power and those who have not is more to do with money than gender. There are lots of men who are subjugated. It may well be worse to be poor and female but it's a whole lot worse to be poor and male than rich and female. IMO.

Oh and I have no problem being female and angry. I get angry about all sorts of stuff.

[edam]

Do you think it's a left-wing thing, Custy? Weren't politically active working class women always persuaded they should work for the revolution first and all these finer details would be sorted out later? (Not suggesting you'd fall for any of that crap, but the Labour movement does have a sad history of relegating women to the roster of supporting artistes instead of headliners.)

[fluffles]

i am not 'not a feminist' but i also don't go round saying to people 'i am a feminist' because it's an 'ism' that i haven't studied in detail and don't understand fully. i have read a bit and i know that i agree with most of what i've read but there's also a lot i disagree with (hate all the crap about 'intuition' in books like the women who run with wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, also feel very uncomfortable with anything about women having differnt brains/strengths as i am very mathimatical/logical minded).

so although i'd love to do some OU courses in the topic if i had time, without further study i am reluctant to say 'i am a feminist' in an unqalified way.

[KalokiMallow]

Whitethorn So do you believe that only people who identify themselves as feminist can want equality?

[vesuvia]

custardo wrote - "I believe that when society divides itself into smaller ideological groups this divides society and therefore the power of the people to create change."

I think you are implying that is a shortcoming of feminism alone. I think that is a description of all political movements and parties.

[vesuvia]

mollycuddles wrote - "I would tend to say that the cause of most of the trauma to people, male and female in the world is capitalism. Many of those at the top are white men but I feel the split between those who have power and those who have not is more to do with money than gender."

Women as a group had it worse than men as a group under communism too. e.g. women punished for not having enough babies in Romania.

[edam]

Fluffles - I wouldn't let someone else's definition put you off feminism. At heart it is the belief that women are of equal value to men. Believe that and you are a feminist. People may argue definitions beyond that point but so what if one person who identifies as feminist goes on about brain differences? Doesn't mean you are drummed out of the club if you happen not to agree with them. (No idea what the argument is re. brain difference but suspect I'd be on your side of the argument anyway.)

[jasper]

because the term has been tainted beyond its original meaning

[lenak]

I do not call myself a feminist. It does not mean that I don't strongly believe in and fight for equality, neither does it make me an anti-feminist. I do think, however, that despite the dictionary definition of feminism being equality of the sexes, it does focus largely on women and often seems to me to ignore, or at least place on a lower priority the inequalities suffered by some men (single fathers and SAHD's in particular. Understandably, perhaps, but non-the less, something I don't feel comfortable with.

For me it is also true that I do not want to be labelled. I do not see a problem with that. I don't label myself according to any of my other political views either (socialist, conservative, liberal etc), mainly because these views are many and varied and I don't agree with any single ideology enough to say "I am a [insert political ideology label here]".

That is not of course to say that I am not political, because I am - I just argue each issue on its merits and according to my own beliefs and experiences. I will not be tied down to a particular ideology, because I feel it is restrictive and can prevent people from looking at the bigger picture.

With feminism in particular, I also feel that it is a very wide ideology, encompassing all from the liberal to the radical. While I understand that this can be very useful in achieving feminist aims, I also think it puts a lot of people off wearing the label - it certainly does me. In other political ideologies, those on the fringes tend to split off and call themselves something else (The formation of the SDP as a Labour breakaway and at the other end of the scale the Tea Party in America), but feminism remains firmly united. I know there are different types of feminisms, but the differentials do not seem to be part of the common lexicon mostly, I think, because different types of feminism are not as exclusive as the differences in other political ideologies and movements.

These are the fundamental and deep-seated reasons why I choose not to call myself a feminist and are quite difficult to explain in writing on an anonymous forum.

There are also much simpler reasons why I choose not to wear the label. I am not going to associate myself as being even remotely in the same sphere as "feminists" who claim that women who choose not to call themselves feminists are:
"very stupid and submissive",
"don't understand feminism",
"going along with a patriarchal lifestyle without question",
"they are idiots. Too stupid to actually understand what the word means, too stupid to bother to find out, too stupid to use their imaginations re the alternative"
or "feminists" that will get on their "soapbox and shout at them until they either change their mind or cross me off their Christmas list forever."

These comments are ignorant, patronising and no better than the "Let's keep women bare foot, pregnant and uneducated" and "little woman" views of the patriarcy which they claim to be fighting against. In fact, because they are coming from women who claim to be feminists that are actually much much more insulting. If a man said this in relation to a women who, for example, did not agree with his conservative views, he would rightly be shouted down as a sexist, ignorant, patriarchal fool, so why is it OK for women to say it about other women, just because they refuse to embrace their ideological label?

I also disagree with the details of some of the stated aims of the western (UK?) feminist movement, but that is a different debate and this post is already long enough!

[vesuvia]

LittleRedDragon wrote - "Women my age are constantly made aware that women get better results than men at school, and that the laws have never been more positive in terms of helping women/mothers have careers. Many people feel that identifying as a 'feminist' is tantamount to being ungrateful for these advances."

Many of those laws and improvements in society are because of feminism not despite feminism.

How can feminists be seen by non-feminists as ungrateful for feminist-inspired laws?

That is bizarre!

[JaneS]

vesuvia - indeed.

I find it deeply annoying. Many people my age think that feminism is almost embarrassingly out of date, because there are now equality laws.

The fact that these laws are a very recent drop in a very big ocean, or that they are not always observed, seems to be irrelevant.

[lenak]

Dittany - Sorry if the fact that, as a strong, non-submissive, successful woman who knows my own mind, I find being called "Stupid and Submissive" and "an Idiot" insulting upsets your feminist sensibilities.

I did not compare feminists to misogynists - I didn't mention the word misogyny at all. I only used conservatism as an example of another political ideology - I could have easily said socialist views or liberal views.

I simply pointed out that if a man had said those things he would be called sexist.

The fact that you have labelled a man saying those things would be mysogynistic, yet seem to think it is OK for feminists to say it because it is borne out of frustration speaks volumes for the contempt in which you seem to hold people who disagree with you.

[vesuvia]

lenak wrote - "despite the dictionary definition of feminism being equality of the sexes, it does focus largely on women and often seems to me to ignore, or at least place on a lower priority the inequalities suffered by some men (single fathers and SAHD's in particular. "

Turning that around, do any political movements place an emphasis on single fathers and SAHDs (and at the same time, give equal priority to addressing the inequalities suffered by some women)?

If the answer to that question is "no", that seems to me like holding feminism to a higher standard.

[lenak]

vesuvia - er no, because as far as I'm aware there are no other political ideologies that are primarily concerned with equality?

However, I do hold other political ideologies up to the same standard, but based on the arguments associated with their individual and particular stated aims.

[vesuvia]

lenak wrote - "er no, because as far as I'm aware there are no other political ideologies that are primarily concerned with equality?
However, I do hold other political ideologies up to the same standard, but based on the arguments associated with their individual and particular stated aims."

So despite feminism being the only equality game in town, would you rather not participate because you see feminism as hypocritical and not equal enough?

Do you participate in other political movements, even when they have no interest in equality or even promote inequality? As long as they do what they claim to do?

[BuzzLightBeer]

whats with all the "don't label me" stuff? Everyone has labels whether you like them or not. Its naive to think that you can escape it. Not-a-feminist is just as much a label as feminist.

And whoever said they recognised the problems women faced but said its not about male domination..I think you are confusing the personal with the political, which is another reason some will not identify as feminist. When you think of the male in male domination and the men you have particular experience of do not fit the mould, you fail to see the poltical dimension instead of the personal.