What does someone actually mean when they say "I'm not a feminist"?

[TheFeministParent]

For me it means that either:
a) they are a man
b) they think feminist means militant lesbian
c) they think feminism has no relevance.

I wonder if the whole gay pride movement was assisted by more mainstream homosexuals, I mean I thought that Freddie Mercury and George Michael were straight. Now I know homosexuals have been around as long as straights but we had to overcome a new thing...I hope I'm making sense...trouble is we've never had to deny that we are/were women and so it's not a new fight. It's a long hard one.

I do hope that the backlash to such a permissive gaggle of town/city councils will come a renewed interest in feminism. with our new Hooters we certainly have more feminist voices in Bristol.

I think unfortunately for some people, feminism has attracted some stigma. Not always helped by some of the people claiming to be acting in the name of feminism.

Now I know feminism is about equal rights for women, and equal treatment. But there are some people who think of it more in terms of wanting revenge on men. They don't want to be equal, they want to be the privileged sex.

Unfortunately you'll get them in all groups of people, it's not specific to feminism by any stretch. They also tend to be quite aggressive towards anyone who doesn't share their view exactly. And they are quite vocal too.

So I guess if you've had a few run ins with these people, your idea of what feminism is will be tainted by their very strange world view. Plus, if you've had run ins with them, you'll already have been told that you couldn't possibly be a feminist. Usually due to some strange idea they have.

I've actually been accused by someone like that of being against feminism because I like wearing makeup one of the weirder conversations I've ever had.

Some of the comments in this thread make me sad as they are writing off the opinions of those who don't feel they can identify with feminism. Especially comments like;
"When I hear that, I hear "I am very stupid and submissive.""

No matter how simple to understand feminism is at the very root, people have a wonderful habit of putting their own spin on it. You need to take into account what people have been taught feminism is about.

It also doesn't take into account how many people who do not identify as feminists still do their bit for equality.

I think feminism has become much more complex, and as such, it isn't always as simple as saying "I am" or "I'm not".

I think many women feel that all the battles have been fought and that anyone who continues to describe themselves a 'feminist' is just being argumentative. I think they also believe that if they are a 'feminist' that means they can't like doing traditionally feminine things, must have a career, can't be a SAHM etc.

I think also some women have simply had very privileged lives and their gender hasn't stopped them doing anything or been a disadvantage. This is often true of younger women - they don't realise how much harder things can be once you have children or get older. That's when the real prejudice kicks in, I find. Whereas at school girls do better, there are loads of girls at uni doing really well, and the gender gap is pretty equal early on in careers. So it's harder for them to believe that women are still disadvantaged.

It's easy to discount feminist issues if something hasn't happened to you yet, e.g. rape, job discrimination, even heckling. I can count the times I've been heckled by builders etc. on one hand, and I don't think I'm unattractive! It just hasn't happened to me much.

Dittany My point is that it isn't feminists causing it. But that people's views may be coloured by their experience with people who are after something other than equality.

It's not unusual to have your views affected by the people you speak, and the only solution is to keep educating people.

"I think they also believe that if they are a 'feminist' that means they can't like doing traditionally feminine things, must have a career, can't be a SAHM etc. "

Which is a lack of knowledge about it, sometimes told to them by people claiming to know it as a fact of feminism.

KalokiMallow wrote - "But there are some people who think of it more in terms of wanting revenge on men. They don't want to be equal, they want to be the privileged sex."

Please can you give some examples of that because I don't think I've seen that. Perhaps I am experiencing a blind spot of some kind. Examples could help me recognize "female supremacy" thinking and help me take steps to oppose it if I come across it.

I think a lot of non-feminists see the glass as half-full and a lot of feminists see the glass as half-empty.

When I hear a woman say "I have plenty of money, a good career etc", I usually want to say, well perhaps your career could be even better, if certain discrimination was removed.

That reminds me of a thread about prostitution I was on. There is a prostitute who describes herself as a "courtesan" who is being paid a million pounds a year as a retainer by some billionaire. She was praised as a feminist success by the happy hookers.

My response to that was along the lines of a million pound a year is a lot of money in absolute terms to most of us, but peanuts to a billionaire, less than a few hours work for him. That shows how little he values her, probably less pro rata than a punter on minimum wage pays some trafficked drug addict on a street corner. She has to sell herself short because the power is with the male billionaire.

I have had two conversations with friends who said they weren't feminists, that I remember.

One was when I was 16 and there were 3 of us, two of us said we were feminists and the other looked quite shocked and said that she definitely wasn't. We talked to her about stuff but she wasn't having it. Her background was from a very very traditional family - male head of household in a big way. There was also an element that she thought that boys wouldn't like it. She is married now and her relationship is very traditional, in line with what she was brought up with.

The other conversation more recently, with a friend who is highly intelligent and always with an interesting slant on things. She had thought about it and decided no, feminism wasn't for her. She liked her role as wife and her husband being the head of the household and felt that everything was as it should be. And to be fair she has a charmed life, so really doesn't see that anything needs changing. Things have worked very well for her so why rock the boat IYSWIM.

When people say they aren't feminists I ask them why TBH. There are loads of different reasons

ISNT wrote - "Things have worked very well for her so why rock the boat"

To help other women less fortunate than her?

LOL

yes well.

I'll have a think about that one. She is a charitable person, and does good work and all that. Religious. Hmm.

ISNT wrote - "She is a charitable person, and does good work and all that."

Fair enough!

It's hard isn't it. She really is very nice. She's not very political generally TBH - as someone mentioned earlier, feminism is a political statement. I guess maybe some people don't feel that strongly about that sort of thing. Conversations about politics end up with me looking at her like this as well. I have tried, she's just not that interested!

"I want to be able to wear make-up and for men to like me"

Hmm, MN ate my post.

Dittany and Vesuvia Unfortunately I have met people like that, I'd point you to them but I didn't exactly want to stay in touch. Understandably I feel.

Luckily they aren't in the majority by a long shot, but I can see why some people's view of feminism is coloured (actually clouded is probably a better word) by these -slightly- -unhinged- people.

I found myself doubting whether I agreed with feminism for a bit too, even though it's daft to be swayed by their logic. It does affect you when it is so aggressive with it - and let's face it, when you are arguing that half the human race should be in servitude to the other half, in order to atone for it originally being the other way round. You're going to rely on aggression, not logic.

And if that aggression is telling you that in order to be a {insert whatever they think they are}, you need to hate others and change your life dramatically, it will make you want to run the other way.

I'm thankful that this isn't the way it is here, but it does account for why some people don't feel comfortable calling themselves feminists.

I have been treated rather nastily on here before when I said that I'm not a feminist, and I also find the lists at the top of this thread very insulting.

Nonetheless, I will give my opinion again. I do not call myself a feminist, neither would I want to. I don't like being labelled. I believe in equality, and have and will continue to fight for that. If however I felt that men / race / disabilities were being discriminated against, I would also fight their corner if I had the power.

Mind, you, if you asked my husband, he might say that I am a feminist, as we share responsibilities, decisions, I've done well in very male-orientated industries in the past, do well in my career, have challenged situations that I felt unfair before. I however see that as a human right that should be fought for, not something gender-specific. Also, I feel that sometimes labelling something is counter-productive, people get defensive. Present your point or argue your case based on facts.

I think also that some women feel that gender prejudice works for them. They can get men to deal with 'difficult' things like the car and money, don't have to have a career (assuming they don't want one) but enjoy their husbands' earnings etc. Of course the problem with this approach is that you have to have very nice men (or saps) around you to make it work, otherwise you end up with no power at all.

One of the reasons that I avoid some feminist discussions and activities is that I enjoy debates, but not polemic arguments, and the difference matters to me enormously.

goblin - I so agree. I am fed up with expressing my opinions and being rapped over the knuckles by people who know better. I am a woman, and a feminist by my own lights. That's enough for me.

There should be LeninGrad, but my brain fins it hard to think when I'm being battered by words and shouted at. I love reading StewieGriffinsMums posts, exactly the sort of stuff that makes me think and challenges my normalities. As do your posts.
There are other posters who are passionate and articulate and have very valid points, but I somehow feel bulldozed and I don't like it.
Personal response though, not having a go at very committed people.

This is a very interesting discussion. I always say I'm not a feminist, and what I mean by that is that I have done very well in life by being very pretty (which means that you can get men to do anything you want them to do - which, for me, means all the things I don't like doing), very clever (PhD), very well educated, and from a well off background. I have chosen to be a SAHM because I have no desire to have a career; my one year in a professional career annoyed me immensely because I was surrounded by people who expected me to be a feminist and as career-driven as they were. I secretly hope my daughter will marry someone well off and have four children before she's 30 rather than ending up a 35-year-old career woman who's single and childless (though am spending a fortune on school fees just in case). By the same token, I don't believe that marrying well is an option that's likely to be open to my son - so I suppose I'm not only non-feminist but sexist to boot.

So far as the under-representation of women in top posts is concerned, I'd just say that they have better and more fulfilling things to do than wanting to be top of the judiciary. I rather pity people (men) who think this is the greatest measure of success.