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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

So is Christmas women's work then?

253 replies

Katisha · 22/12/2010 15:38

Following on from my thread here in which in would appear that left to their own deives most, (not all), men would hardly bother with Christmas at all, I would be interested to know why this is.

Is it because women do it all for them? Is it because only women want all the traditional food, decorations, visiting, card sending and frenzy of present buying?

Are women propping up some ridiculous commercial christmas industry and men are right to despise/ignore it?

Or what?

OP posts:
scottishmummy · 30/12/2010 00:32

many women do xmas tasks because they want to.has significance and meaning.others hate it and is drudgery.like any set of choices the answer is complex and shaped by te individual.women arent homogeneous not all women find xmas a domestic drudge.some do,some dont

routinely reading mn i don't recognise a fair whack of aibu the my dp did this and that. doesn't lessen anyone else subjective experiences but doesn't make it mine either

Original poster
Katisha · 30/12/2010 00:36

But still doesn't answer my question of why the evidence seems to point to men generally not getting so involved in Christmas stuff, not caring about it to the same degree.

Trying to see why there is such a gender divide on this. And there is. (Caveat : With exceptions of course.)

OP posts:
sixpercenttruejedi · 30/12/2010 00:38

my lived experience is that I don't feel subordinate or deserve to be, but I'm still faced with it, no matter how much I resist.

scottishmummy · 30/12/2010 00:39

there is no definitive answer to your q.its value laden and subjective.and the answers will vary according to individual preference and experience.it isnt a deep question.at all

scottishmummy · 30/12/2010 00:48

i also don't feel subordinate,but am distressed by inequalities men and women face in life.and as such live with that dichotomy

sixpercenttruejedi · 30/12/2010 00:50

sorry, forgot to refresh, loads of extra posts.
here's a (long winded) example of (minor) pressure put on women at xmas...
Dp and I are friends with another couple. She sends a card adressed only to DP, from them. Because it's addressed to Dp, I feel he should send one back. He doesn't, and yet I'm the one who is considered to be rude. If I point out that the card wasn't actually addressed to me, which was rude from the outset, then I'm accused of being 'up myself' and 'self important' because I expect to be acknowledged.
The man of the partnership being the important one isn't my world view or the view I pass on to my kids but it seems to be the prevailing view which I'm fighting against.
It's not a serious discrimination, it's obviously just a minor irritation but it one on top of another, on top of another that the men around me don't need to bother with, because they are treated as whole people all the time.

scottishmummy · 30/12/2010 00:51

thats not oppression thats wanky tittle tattle.

sixpercenttruejedi · 30/12/2010 00:56

It's the traditions of xmas falling onto the shoulders of the nearest woman whether she likes it or not.
I didn't mention oppression. I said pressure. Meaning sexist pressure. Which is what it is.

sixpercenttruejedi · 30/12/2010 00:58

Tittle tattle also implies, running telling tales which isn't what I'm doing. I think you'll find all the appropriate disclaimers in my post

scottishmummy · 30/12/2010 01:02

only so if one acquiesce,can demur too

however my dp chose to answer his correspondence isnt my business,and i dont feel compelled to attend to it.he is adult he can do it if he wishes

these matters of manners/etiquette become womens business if you make it so

scottishmummy · 30/12/2010 01:05

sixpercenttruejedi,you're describing strained middle class manners around correspondence

madwomanintheattic · 30/12/2010 01:06
Grin that's not oppression put on women at christmas. that's a couple of nutters. although 'wanky tittle tattle' has a much nicer ring to it. Grin

it's not like every couple's cards are traditionally addressed to men by women, is it? if that was the case, i'd be right up there shouting 'oppression' with you.

are you sure they didn't just address the envelope to him because they couldn't be bothered to write both of your names on the envelope, and then just signed it inside, assuming that you were clever enough to work out it was for both of you, you living together at the same address and all? (or did it actually say inside the card 'to john, merry christmas, all our love, paul and penny xxx')? if that were the case, i'd be more pissed about being deliberately ignored than any bizarro 'it's because i'm a woman' stuff...

sixpercenttruejedi · 30/12/2010 01:07

That's the point, I didn't make it so. People I know (yes I'm aware that's a whole different story) try to make it so. Then impose (again minor) social sanctions on me not dp for not conforming to matter of etiquette. (card was for both of us apparently, I'm not unduly interested in Dp's mail)

scottishmummy · 30/12/2010 01:08

look hard enough life will offend you at every turn

madwomanintheattic · 30/12/2010 01:08

did you just say 'oh god, no, i don't write the cards - that's his job in our house'? (it is here, lol. i don't think i'vr written a card since i got married about 12 years ago...)

scottishmummy · 30/12/2010 01:12

sixpercenttruejedi stop yakking about middle class she said/i said/he posted/i posted.you made that rod for you own back

sixpercenttruejedi · 30/12/2010 01:15

yeah, lol at middle class. If only.
I'm not screaming oppression, this thread is about the pressures put on women at Xmas. A lot of things go on a xmas, cards, presents, do I need to spell it out? That was one minor example of how you can end up judged in a sexist way for things that you/I really can't be bothered with.
The point of these things is that they are minor but they add up. I haven't plucked them out of thin air, the fact that they are minor is what makes them easy to dismiss. It's only the accumulative effect.
Madwoman - assuming you are clever enough to work it out. Hmm

madwomanintheattic · 30/12/2010 01:17
Grin well, i am. Grin
sixpercenttruejedi · 30/12/2010 01:17

Ah the old 'that's too general' no 'that's too specific' trick. Almost very clever Wink

scottishmummy · 30/12/2010 01:18

no,you make these pressures upon yourself.they arent global.trust me women aren't sweating it about dp correspondence,and the right thang to do.you are however

sixpercenttruejedi · 30/12/2010 01:27

ok,you've shown me the way,i'll just deliberately miss the point at every turn and see how that works out.

Was that the right class for you SM? I missed out all the punctuation and everything.Hmm
BTW why do you hate the middle classes? You seem to think it's a devastating argument, but I don't really see it.

scottishmummy · 30/12/2010 01:30

you have lost it Hmmhumphy face and all.if you get in such a state about dp correspondence,here a tip: he adult get him sort it.as opposed to you musing over the ignominy of it all

sixpercenttruejedi · 30/12/2010 01:42

I'm not in a state, I have observed it happening around me and used my words to vocalise what I saw. Like what I was taught. I have many other examples but there's no point counting them all, it's the pattern that counts.
TBH I use the Hmm face at every opportunity cos I like it. I don't think it's the same as Humphy Face.
You didn't answer why you thought 'middle class' was such a devastating insult.

sixpercenttruejedi · 30/12/2010 01:57

don't make me beg Grin

madwomanintheattic · 30/12/2010 04:32

what 'pattern', though? you've given one example of one couple's action... even though i'm a qual girl rather than quant, even i can see that really wouldn't be statistically significant...

i've never been able to work out the class thing. me mam (snurk) was a cleaner, but given that one's class is (naturally Grin) dictated by one's dh, one apparently is blatantly middle class these days. tis v confusing for a gel.

oh, and i got well flamed for using Hmm as a sceptical face, rather than the 'you're talking utter bollocks' face, so i just don't use it at all now to save any misconceptions.

i actually do think you'd be better off taking to task the numpties that use christmas as shining bejewelled cranberried and iced proof of their ultimate feminine powers than sm though tbh. it's those women that perpetrate the ridiculousness, rather than a lone voice saying 'get him to answer his own mail. and if he doesn't, don't sweat it.'