So is Christmas women's work then?

[Katisha]

Following on from my thread here in which in would appear that left to their own deives most, (not all), men would hardly bother with Christmas at all, I would be interested to know why this is.

Is it because women do it all for them? Is it because only women want all the traditional food, decorations, visiting, card sending and frenzy of present buying?

Are women propping up some ridiculous commercial christmas industry and men are right to despise/ignore it?

Or what?

I never felt guilty about it before cause I didnt think it was anything to do with me before I read this. I never thought other women thought like this either but everyone else seems to but me on here? .

My mum and dad buy the presents for my side of the family and wrap them for me. (I know I am a bit old for this ). I just get theirs and my brothers.

Well, all I know is that if you read papers/watch TV adverts in the run up to Christmas, the assumption is that women are doing most of the present buying. And I know that my own family assume a man who can buy presents is like a kind of miracle.

As it happens, DH and I are both normal adults with credit cards and everything, and we can buy for whoever needs a present. That said, I don't want to pretend that I've never heard of social pressure on women to organize a 'perfect Christmas', because I have. Just because I can opt out of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or that opting out of this one situation is enough: it's not.

no i dont expand to take on every task at.xmas,nor is it expected of me.we both work ft so we plan,write list and allocate who does what for all our mutual benefit

It does come down to 'what is it that makes different people's experiences so different'?

So, though I didn't see the original trigger thread, my role in this household is to keep something of a rational limiter on what might get done in the way of festivities - all by dh. Once I have played a bit of a part in keeping the dreams manageable, then, because what motivates me is communal living, I am quite happy to generate some mass meals, host some in-laws, and fill some stockings - ie to support the planned magic-creation, but up to the limit that I think is practical. If dh has dreams over the limit, he knows they're for him to realise, without either of us feeling resentful or unappreciated or exploited. (Such dreams have in the past included printing a Christmas card that was a book of recipes.)

Leaving aside partners who simply have an incompatible sense of what enjoyment is (which must be an entirely different psychological & sociological thread), the key is freedom of choice, isn't it, and how you feel that freedom? Dh has this urge to create magic at Christmas, but it's completely socially unloaded and so there's no stress around it - it comes from within him, not without. If he didn't do all the festive stuff, I would a bit, up to my Sensible Limit - because I am not invested in being a magic-maker. (Apart from stockings: I am invested in stockings, but those are of course important and essential magic.)

Why am I not invested in being a magic-maker, and other women so much are? And why don't I anyway feel a pressure to be a magic-maker, if other women do? (I think I have an answer to that, which is about horizons, work and the arena(s) you choose (and I do think it is choice, where Xmas is concerned) to test yourself in - but it's only an answer that will fit me.) I don't at all doubt there are women who feel that they cannot escape being tested by Christmas - that their personal worth is determined by it, if not by themselves then by those around & in some way in power over them - but what is it that makes them not be able to resist that? When I can?

But, bink, does 'resisting' do any good in the long term? I understand it's good for you (I do it too). But why is opting out a good thing in any sense other than a purely personal one? Is this not a bit like saying, well, I'm the Queen of England so I'm in a position of power and therefore this feminism lark doesn't apply to me?

I don't like the idea of doing the Christmas work for DH, but I do see that society expects me to. If I opt out, that's nice for me, but it doesn't challenge social perceptions except in a small and limited way.

the act of not undertaking stereotypical tasks you resent is a challenge.redefines not necessarily your business or womens business.perhaps prompts other adult to step up and share respomsibility

"Why am I not invested in being a magic-maker, and other women so much are?"

I think you are over-thinking this slightly, Bink. Some people (not just women, but more women than men), are intensely creative and nurturing. Christmas is when both those personality traits can be fulfilled simultaneously and at great expense (money, time and energy), without a shred of guilt.

If you aren't creative or particularly nurturing, this might just pass you by! Just as creative types don't understand eg people who are power-driven.

Yes, but is it enough?

I don't think so. I think, in this situation, opting out is just that.

See, my issue is that I genuinely don't feel society tells me to do Christmas - I DO feel society tells me, and loudly, to do all sorts of other things, like pay my taxes, and prepare for retirement, and recycle responsibly and so on; but not Christmas.

So it's not that I'm saying here are these pressures but yay I'm so tough I can withstand them - I'm saying I don't feel the pressures. And so, why don't I? And why do others? It's a real question, not a rhetorical one, and only phrased as a personal one to me as a simple starting point - the real question is why women pick up on Christmas pressures rather than 'hey I need a pension' pressures.

so what?maintain status quo and feel put upon by societal and familial pressures.sounds like put up and shut up

Because it's more fun, Bink. Woman cannot live by pension alone, you know .

I see what you're saying.

I suppose the way I see it is, I don't feel any pressure to be circumcised. But I accept that some women do. I don't feel any pressure to be quiet and demure, either. But many women do. I don't feel the need to obey my husband (and he'd look at me as if I'd grown three heads if I did). But I do accept that many women do feel these pressures, and I'm sure they're real.

I can understand that not everyone feels the same pressure to do all the work for Christmas, but I can look at adverts on TV and listen to barbed comments from my relatives, and I can see why women do feel that pressure.

i like xmas and busy noisy house with weans and family.i grew up wth mammie and lots of aunties all busy and hard at it all xmas day

I don't think any women I know feel under any societal or family pressure whatsoever to take charge of Christmas. If they say they do, they are being disengenuous and passing the buck for the project they themselves have freely undertaken. They want to give their families a nice Christmas, and it's a lot of work to do so, even if it is work that they enjoy, and so sometimes they get a bit overwhelmed by it all and wish there wasn't quite so much to do - but because they have a clear vision of how they want Christmas to be, they carry on anyway.

So is the female idea of Christmas generally different from the male in our culture?

Anecdotal evidence from MN and around me in RL suggests that even if women did decide not to do a lot of the traditional Christmas stuff, that many men wouldn't actually be bothered. It just would never happen, and they wouldn't really mind.

The following would quite likely not happen in many cases : cards, a lot of extended family/friend present-buying, even presents for DCs and partners sometimes, decorations, visiting and being visited...

And would this be a bad thing? Could this be a chance to scale down the excesses of the modern commercial Christmas, and just stick to the big feast?

you are supposing and making many what if leaps.what if men..what if women...

see thats the rub mn is across section of opinion and experience.but one cannot robustly hold up any online blibber blabber as proof of anything

it is good read, a lot of you do what but i dont draw deep significance from it

and i think a great deal many male and female adults can pull off xmas despite what some on mn may suppose. i dont imagine a catastrophic no presents, crying families,fuck all done

Katisha, we pretty much stuck to the big feast, as you say. I couldn't get into the swing of it all, for various reasons (skint, ill, snow), and we just did the bare minimum. I enjoyed it though. Stripped-down Christmas is rather good actually.

My male version of Christmas, it is as minimal as I can get it.

Put decorations up.
Presents from Amazon, only for my immediate family. Mum,Dad, and my children.

We've agreed between the siblings to stop buying each other and each others children presents and just spend the money on our own children as they actually get what they want then.

Gave seven Christmas cards out, I don't post any.
One shop to Sainsburys.
Wrap presents.
Cook dinner for six.

Just see my family as we normally would.
In a couple of days I'll take the decorations down.

That's about it really. Very relaxing and as long as the children enjoy it I'm happy.

I am very much coming to the conclusion that stripped down Christmas is the way to go. Not because I feel overwhelmed by the women's-work type prep, but because for the first time I have had a proper look at it all and am beginning to think hmm...Christmas cards I am looking at you for a start!

don't be silly, dittany, it's all in their heads. NOwt wrong with society; no pressure on women at all, no role expections imposed by in-laws or the media or society at large at all..

Dittany, I put that badly, but you can see from the rest of my posts that I am arguing against those who think the pressure is all in women's minds/ purely optional.

You've both got it wrong, it's because most of us just aren't loving or creative enough, and if only we were we would just love doing all the work

I don't think that Christmas would be vastly different if men did more of the work - I've not personally noticed any difference in the households I know where men take their fare share of the work. Marketers would simply change their focus and the selling fest would go on.

I don't think that looking at threads on MN gives a very representative sample. Firstly because the vast majority here are women, and secondly because people (generally) post to complain or to support others that are complaining, which gives a very unbalanced picture. There is a very handy myth of male uselessness about Christmas (generally 'poor useless man, can't possibly be creative, thoughtful, do more than one thing at a time, is time poor because is working terribly hard so his women can spend the money etc, deserves to be looked after etc etc). The myth wouldn't exist without a reason, but whilst it supports lazy men, I imagine it's also quite diempowering too.

Good point about the myth being crappy for men too, nooka. I certainly know my DH gets a bit fed up with the assumption that he's a poor wee man who can't be expected to cook a decent meal!

dittany - don't worry, I posted a lot last night! Too much to keep up with.