Sex Porn and Teenagers 8pm Monday 4/10 BBC Radio 4

[LadyBiscuit]

That's in 5 mins :)

From the BBC website:

" "Shag bands" are thin coloured rubber bracelets, indicating how far the wearer will go sexually if the band is broken.

Purple for a kiss or yellow for a hug may seem comparatively harmless but some of the other colours such as black for full intercourse or blue for oral sex ring alarm bells.

A Wakefield MP recently campaigned to stop shops selling them after complaints from parents including a mother who innocently bought some for her 6-year old's party bag. Elsewhere schools have banned "shag bands" after finding pupils wearing them.

Part of playground culture, they're often worn innocently or in a show of bravado but there is a darker side where early sexual exploration strays into the easily accessible world of internet porn. Where children once passed notes, they now use their mobile phones to share explicit images and there's peer pressure through social networking sites.

Presenter Miranda Sawyer, herself a mother, investigates whether society and parents are aware of just what their children are getting up to and asks how concerned should we be about the sexualisation of children in media, advertising and fashion such as sale of padded bras for pre-pubescent girls or sexual references on T shirts for primary-aged kids.

Even though teenage pregnancy rates are falling, Britain still has the highest rate in Western Europe. As many as 1 in 4 teenagers have underage sex with anecdotal evidence of sexual experimentation including anal sex to avoid pregnancy. However sex education is improving in schools and access to contraception and STI screening has never been better.

But there are concerns that unlike the 'dirty mags' of their parent's day, teenagers now access porn which can be addictive, desensitising and threatening to healthy relationships in the future."

Scary but essential listening I think

Its not really that weird stewiesmom. My friends parents used to hide in the bushes in our local park when we hung around with the car crew when I was young. Now that actually was weird.

Herbeautitude - Yeah the early adopters are leading the way as such but they were at our school. What about people dealing class As at 13/14 or smoking etc? There was loads of that at my school but again you wont be able to stop that either as people try but it never works. In fact my old school has got about a million times worse since I left and there have been very expensive measures to try and change things.

'The discussion about the girl whose image having sex referenced "girls like that". There was no mention of the boy being a social outcast for having done something as nasty and indeed criminal. '

And that is what I am saying. You are all saying about the pornification side but it is still really bad if a young under 16 year old girl has sex. This attitude is perpetuated by women as well. I said I had sex underage on another thread and got told I had low self esteem, must have been troubled, was an extreme case and must have had no interests at all outside of sex and must have had a crap teenage years! Not a single man on the thread.

Also dittany not all porn is the rn jeremy type. I love porn with attractive men and that is why most women dont want mainstream. That is why there is so much good stuff to watch from actual real people and its more real.

Well thank you for your counsel of despair Sunny, I understand that your POV is that we can't do anything about anything bad in the world.

So what are you doing on a feminist thread? Feminism is by definition about changing the world. You appear to be in favour of keeping the world exactly as it is. So in the most polite way, what exactly are you doing here? what is your agenda? Are you in favour of the pornification of our culture?

"You are all saying about the pornification side but it is still really bad if a young under 16 year old girl has sex."

You have completely misunderstood me. The criminality I was referring to, was the sending of pornographic images by phone.

Are you in favour of the pornification of our culture?

I dont think you should send photos of people unwillingly no obviously but I do think education makes a difference. Education made a difference to me and was why I was never coerced and have never felt intimidated to say no to anything in my life.

I dont think that porn should be banned on internet and I dont think lads mags or those kind of mags should be banned. Put them on top shelf if you like but dont think they should be banned at all. I also think that there are always going to be loads of bad influences in life but your teen has to start getting used to saying no to them as things arent going to change when they get older.

I dont agree with everyone saying porn should be banned or that it shouldnt exist. If women want to make more female friendly stuff then more should come forward. I fully support more women putting what women like in to the porn/sex industry. I think that makes it a fairer thing and would also be a massive market. The reason why it hasnt taken off is corporate men try to make porn that they think women will like and it isnt what they like and that is why women gravitate towards amateur.

I do think things have changed with the advent of social networking as now you cant hide anything as all pics go online and I dont think there ever will be anyway back from that. I would prefer it if social networking didnt exist in fairness but now its here its not going away.

'"You are all saying about the pornification side but it is still really bad if a young under 16 year old girl has sex."

You have completely misunderstood me. The criminality I was referring to, was the sending of pornographic images by phone.'

You misunderstood me. I was saying it is still seen as bad for a female to have sex but not a male as women arent meant to want sex in the same way men are. That attitude is alive and well so I was agreeing with you when you said you thought it was bad when they said 'girls like that'. This is an attitude perpetuated by both men and women.

Sunny, what do you think the porn culture is doing to eliminate that double standard?

Do you support the pornification of our culture?

Sunny you keep saying that you were never coerced.

What about all the girls and women who were and are coerced?

And what about the fact that the porn culture contributes to the environment which means that coercion is practically inevitable?

Do you really think that the discussion around the porn culture is just about you and your (minority) experiences? Is that what you understand by feminism?

INteresting sunny said she learned about sex from magazines. I've mentioned before on here that women's magazines (like porn) un learned me the innate knowledge I'd been born with about sex. Magazines emphasize a commercial version of sex that was so unlike real sex. As far as I could see magazines planted complexes in teenage girls' brains.
Everything I learned about sex I learned from the boy I was we [we learned together] and by comparing notes with friends (but we didn'T do that very often, because sex is so personal and intimate that it would be a betrayal of the moments in some ways, I felt)

what a garbled post

I have spotted so many inconsistencies in sunny's posts since she began posting on here

'These posts read like they were written by a Fembot who's escaped from Stepford.'

Not really as I am one of the only ones on here who doesnt feel pressured to dress a certain way, has never been coerced by a man and doesnt live in a house where I do more than the man. Then again I am not the kind of person who feels pressure/would stand for a lot.

I think a lot is to do with your own attitudes as like on the other thread where it says women have been conditioned not to say no. I have not found that at all. It does got on but it isnt inevitable. If you dont want to do something then dont tell them to fuck off. If someone has found that then it is because they havent ever been taught confidence and self esteem. This is more important than anything in my eyes.

I know not all children/teens can learn that at home as some of their own parents arent confident or self assured so in these cases emphasise should be on stuff like this within schools. Even if it means splitting the sexes and having different lessons relevant to each sex. The way I see it is schools are full of drugs, smoking and all kinds of things if you dont have the self esteem/confidence to say no its going to hinder your whole life. You could take all porn away but there will still be drugs everywhere and everything else. When I was at school by 14 I had been offered pills, speed, herion and weed. That is what a lot of areas are like and you have to be the one to not do things. Its the same with smoking. I do think with education it will be how people say no to things.

The posting of things online and sex pics/facebook etc is a different issue but in this new generation (and even with the older ones) it is something that every person has to be vigilant of as now people post pics of people doing all sorts on line and you have no control over it (eg drunken nights out etc). This is something that isnt going to change imo regardless of what we would like.

I definitely dont think coercion is practically inevitable at all herbeautitude. I dont think body issues are inevitable and I dont think having to be a certain way is inevitable either.

Right so Sakura you learnt about contraception, stds etc as you went along? Also magazines dont just tell you the boys way of doing things in my eyes. I did learn things myself as well and obviously through being with boys.

As I said regarding the pornification of culture I dont think kids should be allowed on net without supervision because of grooming, meeting of people and those issues. I also wouldnt allow my teen to go around in loads of make up or be preoccupied by her apperance as I am not myself and think its a waste of time and causes people to be neurotic about themselves. I would however advocate them having sex in the house and also would tak the approach like the therapist on sex with mum and dad.

I dont think every sex session you have to have is a big intimitate thing. Some is but some is just sex.

sunny, you're just lying now, or suffering from some serious cognitive dissonance. I just read your first paragraph and I can't be bothered to read the rest.
You told me that you did the cooking and clean up before your husband got home after looking after up to eight kids because your husband was too tired.
WHen I questioned this extraordinarily unequal set-up, you said that you liked doing the shitwork.
You then proceeded to give me unwelcome marriage advice [unwelcome because your marriage is not equal by any means] which went along the lines of "you should suck it up and compromise more.

"Right so Sakura you learnt about contraception, stds etc as you went along?"

No, we had sex eduation in school. I think I was 12.

I said I liked cooking and cleaning after work now and said in the wifework thread how I liked it because I have learnt to cook somethings recently and I have. I do like doing it now as I have done stuff I never thought I would be able to do. This is only happened since my daughter has been born but has been a massive step for me personally. That was how I compromised after kids by learning to cook a dinner for myself. I do like hoovering and doing the light tidying but that is about all I like and dinner isnt too bad once I tried it. You also assumed my husband said he worked harder than me which he has never said.

Again you kept saying after 8 kids cause you read it wrong. You thought I had 3 and that I looked after 8 kids when I said that I looked after between 3 and 8 kids in a day which is uk ratios. 8 is full capacity for me and it isnt like that everyday. Also working in a nursery with a few is way easier than looking after 1 of your own at home as they have all the toys/resources and their friends there. Anyway that isnt relevant to this thread.

"Not really as I am one of the only ones on here who doesnt feel pressured to dress a certain way, has never been coerced by a man and doesnt live in a house where I do more than the man. Then again I am not the kind of person who feels pressure/would stand for a lot".

Ahh, the arrogance of youth.

What makes you think that you are unique on here? I'm almost twice your age and your statement applies to me and to many of the 40-something happily married posters on MN.

"I also wouldnt allow my teen to go around in loads of make up or be preoccupied by her apperance as I am not myself and think its a waste of time and causes people to be neurotic about themselves" - come back when your daughters are teenagers and see if this still holds true .
You'd be stopping them enjoying one of the pleasures of growing up, strange for someone so liberated.
There's an awful lot you wont be allowing your children to do. They'll do it anyway, in secret, which makes it much harder to deal with should anything go wrong.

'"Right so Sakura you learnt about contraception, stds etc as you went along?"'

It doesnt go in to the kind of detail I mean like the pill types and their side effects etc. All of the contraception types in full detail. We studied it for about ten minutes they took a condom out of the packet and then they mentioned the pill that was it. Then you went in secondary schools and condoms were given out sometimes but no one ever talked about them. It was always just say no to sex and no to drugs as they are both bad which was the most ridciculous attitude ever growing up in an area like mine as no one took them seriously.

The British are too scared to talk to teens like adults as they think it will make them go mental but I think the opposite is true. After having all drugs are bad and they can kill you the first time shock approach when people did do them they said thats a load of crap and kept going until they were in worse states. If someone actually said look drugs can be good experiences and can produce a great feeling however it can lead to addiction and in extreme cases death. Also thinks you have to worry about are if you get in to things like speed you wont eat and it can result in malnutrition/heart problems etc then it would be so sensationalist and people might actually listen a bit.

The just say no to sex approach and stupid posters like 100 things to do instead of having sex they have around are never going to work. Things like istead of having sex have you ever thought of going out together and walking the dog. I mean wtf.

I wish that people who grew up in bad areas were actually sent in to schools to discuss issues and to talk to teens in a normal way. I think for some people the not knowledge leads to maybe some people relying on porn and nothing else which contributes to the extreme coercing of teens. I think some adults have so little idea of what it is like growing up in certain areas nowadays their advice isnt relevant in the slightest.

I also think with the advent of so many media sources, phones, fb etc then it does mean there are going to be an increasing number of avenues to access bad material and realistically that isnt going to change.

Adults should concentrate on talking to teens properly (either as parents, through schools and youth groups). I know they do that now but not many do it actually properly or realistically on issues. Because of this it creates an inbetweeners type of culture where people just say a load of crap and the easily influenced end up in bad situations.

'I also wouldnt allow my teen to go around in loads of make up or be preoccupied by her apperance as I am not myself and think its a waste of time and causes people to be neurotic about themselves" - come back when your daughters are teenagers and see if this still holds true wink'

By this malifience I mean I wont allow my daughter to go out and wear a complete full face of thick make up at 12 like the girls outside my flat who hang around with the local dealers. They wear more make up than most adults would wear on a night out, straigten their hair to hang out on the streets etc

Sunny, I am glad you have never been coerced to do anything, but it seems to me you want to do so many things that suit men very well anyway. Why bother with coercion if you love working with children for a low wage, would rather do that than anything else; loved having casual sex with lots of boys and thought about sex all the time; like tidying up at home and if you don't have time or are too tired, will hide the stuff in cupboards rather than expect a hand with it?

Frankly I do not want to work with children (except for looking after my own), do not want to earn a low wage, do not want and have never wanted to sleep around, have never been focused on sex at the expense of thinking about other things, and would rlike to live with a partner who helps to tidy up. Fortunately I am not just now coerced to accept any of these things I don't want, but some have tried bloody hard to coerce me to accept things and it has involved a lot of painful resistance and it has not been without cost. At some times of my life has earned me lots of insults and a reputation for being unusually bloody-minded and, leaving aside pyschological and emotional costs, it has cost me quite simply money, in pay rises, promotions, etc, to be female and to be the way I am.

When my daughter is 13, if by some strange quirk of fate she is not dying to be shagged, as I was not, I would very much prefer that she not be insulted and ostracised as a "fridge" if she doesn't want to be felt up by random boys. I don't think she should work with children, or in a support role like secretary or nurse, if she doesn't want to. I do not want her to earn unfairly less whatever she does, and I don't want her to be penalised socially and financially for asking questions and thinking for herself. I don't want her clearing up after a man who takes her for granted, reduced to hiding dirty plates in cupboards if she is exhausted. I think it is worth trying to change society, don't you?

You flip between "everything is fine" and "nothing can be changed anyway". I take issue with both of these positions. For me, everything is not fine. And not for a lot of people I know, and for more whom I don't know. And secondly, things can be changed. Society is only people. Things that happen are only the accumulations of people's behaviours. Do you really have so little respect for people that you think none of them can mean, or do, well?

Right, after that rant I have just seen Sunny's post of 9.33 which talks complete sense about people talking properly to teens in their own language - completely agree.

I think they should be feminists too though

I dont think you should have to work in a female trade if you dont want to. I am ex military and when I was in it was 1 female to every 9 males.

I am not saying everything is fine on this issue if you actually read my posts. I am saying a lot of adults are going for the wrong sources in their attempts to try and stop soft porn/porn culture and drugs it is in fact getting worse and worse every year. So why not instead concentrate on getting people who have actually experienced the issues that occur every day in lots of schools and talk to them properly.

They do not do this now regardless of whether they say they do. The people who say it are usually out of touch with modern life. The thing to change peoples attitudes and to educate is for young people who have experienced certain issues to go in to schools and talk about them on an equal level and with someone they can relate to. There needs to be much more emphasise on this and drugs education and over a longer period. They need to make it relate to modern society in the area they are talking about not give just say no soundbite responses. This would change so much and would help with the impulsivity of teens.

I worked with a teen mum group and a lot I worked with said that their mates did it and they wanted someone to love, get out of their mums etc but when the child was born didnt realise how hard it would be. We got the mums to go in to local schools and talk about their own experiences. Feedback I recieved was it was so much better having some girl of the estates of around their age who is actually living it rather than some out of touch teacher/adult who has no clue. I think this would make so much more difference than people trying to stop porn from being able to be accessed on the internet which you are never ever going to stop in fact year on year its getting more prevelant despite some people campaigning. I just want to actually try and do things that will actually make a difference to youths especially ones on bad estates/areas

ALso I am coming from a place where we are in the top 5% most deprived areas of the UK with poverty, drugs etc. The last thing you want is posh teachers coming in talking about what you should be doing when they havent got the first idea what things are like and spend the whole time worrying about banning shag bands and just say no to everything until your an adult.

That is what happens and that is why for the teens who have no guidance things are so bad. It isnt just the media its family breakdown, having to work lots of hours and not having time with your kids, lots of change within your house etc. That is the real issues imo that can get to those types of kids. More community support, more help for parents and changing things from grassroots. You are never going to stop porn being everywhere and think why waste your time when you could use your efforts to educate and change how adults relate to teens about sex, drugs etc.

'
I think they should be feminists too though'

Also I am a humanist but that doesnt mean I am some stepford wife as people seem keen to paint me as just because I dont agree with everyones opinions.

Argh I am actually quite angry now!