Sex Porn and Teenagers 8pm Monday 4/10 BBC Radio 4

[LadyBiscuit]

That's in 5 mins :)

From the BBC website:

" "Shag bands" are thin coloured rubber bracelets, indicating how far the wearer will go sexually if the band is broken.

Purple for a kiss or yellow for a hug may seem comparatively harmless but some of the other colours such as black for full intercourse or blue for oral sex ring alarm bells.

A Wakefield MP recently campaigned to stop shops selling them after complaints from parents including a mother who innocently bought some for her 6-year old's party bag. Elsewhere schools have banned "shag bands" after finding pupils wearing them.

Part of playground culture, they're often worn innocently or in a show of bravado but there is a darker side where early sexual exploration strays into the easily accessible world of internet porn. Where children once passed notes, they now use their mobile phones to share explicit images and there's peer pressure through social networking sites.

Presenter Miranda Sawyer, herself a mother, investigates whether society and parents are aware of just what their children are getting up to and asks how concerned should we be about the sexualisation of children in media, advertising and fashion such as sale of padded bras for pre-pubescent girls or sexual references on T shirts for primary-aged kids.

Even though teenage pregnancy rates are falling, Britain still has the highest rate in Western Europe. As many as 1 in 4 teenagers have underage sex with anecdotal evidence of sexual experimentation including anal sex to avoid pregnancy. However sex education is improving in schools and access to contraception and STI screening has never been better.

But there are concerns that unlike the 'dirty mags' of their parent's day, teenagers now access porn which can be addictive, desensitising and threatening to healthy relationships in the future."

Scary but essential listening I think

Sunny, if you are a feminist you are supporting humans - by definition - unless you think women aren't humans?

I completely agree with the stuff about the right people talking to teenagers about sex and drugs in the right way. But I am not saying that porn should be controlled instead of this. I think porn should be controlled as well, because it is damaging in its own right, not because it might lead to teenage pregnancy or something - I have no idea if it does.

I think people do need to be realistic in talking to kids about the world they live in. I found it annoying and pathetic at school that adults had no clue what we were up against. But knowing their reality doesn't make it ok.

I dont agree with some aspects of feminism and that is my choice I have my own beliefs and that is up to me. Again I dont agree that all males are priviledged and see issues that affect both sexes and want a soceity that benefits all of them. Again I am living in a very deprived area of UK when it comes to poverty etc so I am coming from a completely different perpective to many on here and cant relate to them.

I personally think porn should be allowed but it is an adult thing and all steps should be in place to stop children watching it.I have my own reasons for not allowing teens off either sex to have access to a pc without me watching them but that is my choice but I think minimising use and educating is the way forward.

I think realistically some feminists worry about how the media perpetuates body image/unrealistic ideas of sex etc but it is a capitalist machine and by making people insecure it causes people to buy more and try and improve themselves.

I am not saying that isnt an issue but in the world of 24 hour media it will never change and it would make more sense to concentrate on teaching teens it isnt true and is unrealistic as opposed to trying to stop it. I believe if you just take the path of trying to stop it I guarntee in 30 years time it will be the same. Teens are still going to see adults as out of touch. The reasons why some people are more easily influenced by the media than others is because they dont have the eduation, have turbulent home lives and people cannot relate to their circumstances. I think people could change much more by doing what I said before as opposed to trying to ban things/stop porn being accessed on net which is completely unrealistic as there are ways round everything on the computer.

Sunny, you said something on another thread about capitalism and materialism causing a lot of insecurity and sadness - which I agree with. I see porn as a particularly bad example of this. Do you think that the negative effects of capitalism are just to be accepted?
Leaving aside for a moment whether there are any alternatives to capitalism itself, we lived in a capitalist society 50 years ago and porn was niche, consumer goods lasted for 20 years or more and personal debt was relatively tiny. Is it impossible to imagine going back to something a little more like that, where you could live with the fridge and the telly you have rather than going into debt, and experimenting teenagers don't find their whole class has a video of them sucking someone off? do you think it good, bad, or inevitable that we have the society we have?
Why are you angry?

I think that Sunny does make good points on a lot of threads. But I think she is wrong about this. I think she is overly fatalistic and believes that nothing can be done to stop the tide of pornography and drugs. Sunny believes that this is the way or the world and we just have to get on with it. I think that Sunny has in effect been demoralised by the environment that she grew up in, where porn and drugs were rife. I believe that the prevalence of porn and drugs in this environment has stripped her of any resistance and robbed her of the strength to fight back. She has come to accept it as the norm.

It's a fatalistic attitude, a bit like saying that burglary is on the increase, there is niothing that can done, just buy better safes to store your valuables. But something can be done. The burglars can be arrested. The drug pushers hanging around outside schools can be arrested. The supply of drugs can be cut dramatically. The environmemt can be cleared of these harmful influences. Porn is harder to deal with, since it is on the internet. But the moral environment can be changed, so that it is discouraged, so that it is not openly supported and so that shops do not sell shag bands to young children. Porn and drugs demoralise the population, they beat them down, keep them down and destroy their resistance. They destroy hope and destroy lives. Things can be done to turn things around, but the first thing we need is to change our attitudes and believe, like Obama, that "yes we can"

Porn on the internet can be made inaccessable to children.
If a country like China can stop the whole poulation from seeing whole swathes of foreign media sites and lots more besides, there is obviously a way of blocking porn sites to anyone who doesn't sign up to them as an adult, i.e. with bank details etc.

If adults want to view legal porn then let them have to go to a bit of effort to do so - protecting our children from the harm of extreme and violent pornography that parades as legal porn is worth that effort, surely?

Sunny keeps justifying amateur porn as ok - I find it sickening because there is no way of knowing of the participants have even the faintest idea that they are performing for millions of voyeurs. I imagine a lot of amateur stuff online is put there without the knowledge or consent of the women involved, as some form of revenge or control.
I think it's also potentially very dangerous, even if consented to and could well be used against the women in the future.

Yes, I think you are right, I am sure that much more can be done. All it takes is will.

Thanks AF! What a relief. And at what SGM said.

For anyone who did not listen to the radio 4 programme, I suggest you do.
Go and listen now and then come back.

It is incredibly difficult for them and for us. We have very little control over what information they are getting to then correct it.
We can have controls over the pc, not give them phones, home school and stop them having friends or mixing with other people. Then we would be ok but this is unrealistic.

What I wanted from the programme was more info on what to do.
Yes, I need to be internet and technology savvy, have good communication with my children now so that when they get older we have put foundations in place.

have you seen the thread going right now about someone's 12 yo looking at porn?

No - where is it?

here

?I definitely don't think coercion is practically inevitable at all herbeautitude. I dont think body issues are inevitable and I dont think having to be a certain way is inevitable either.?

In a world defined by porn, Sunny, it is.

Of course it isn?t otherwise; but you seem to be arguing that we shouldn?t be bothering to try to change things and make it so that most people don't grow up with those pressures.

Throughout history there have been people like you telling other people who wanted to change the world that they shouldn?t bother and there?s no point. Why do you do it? It?s so negative and energy-sapping. And wrong, because we know that the world can be changed, when enough people decide it ought to be and stop listening to the doom-mongers who keep telling them not to bother.

'Throughout history there have been people like you telling other people who wanted to change the world that they shouldn?t bother and there?s no point. Why do you do it? It?s so negative and energy-sapping. And wrong, because we know that the world can be changed, when enough people decide it ought to be and stop listening to the doom-mongers who keep telling them not to bother.'

I propse change at grasss roots level but not that many people actually follow through on any changes actually with the people. So much I see is out of touch with actually RL and peoples experiences I just cant relate. I dont think that porn should be banned or stopped but I do however think more women should influence what they like from the sex industry and make it more female friendly. I dont think porn should be banned and I think as an adult pursuit then it is fine. However with the access to the net thing if it can be done then that is good to stop kids accesing however communities are the most important thing to improve life chances of the vulnerable and disadvantaged of both sexes.

Trust me there are many things I want to change and I am out there changing them. I am commmunity member of my local area and on the committee, I have worked with teen mums, and I have the chance to care for children in the first few years of life from very disadvantaged backgrounds. I am changing my world everyday and shaping the future. So I dont think I am a doom monger.

I am saying why dont more people change thinks at grass roots rather than just pay lip service to it (Not neccessarily anyone in here but I mean overall in RL situations). I think it does make more of a difference being out there and changing things that way personally.

Again malifience as I said the amateur stuff I like I know the people who made it and vice versa as lot is live. Not everyones taste but I dont think all of the sex industry is based on people pressuring people in to things.

And vezzie I was angry on what you wrote as its a complete load of crap about me and I found it really condesending and inaccurate. You backtracked now and I have calmed down but I was more than pissed off earlier.

'Sunny, you said something on another thread about capitalism and materialism causing a lot of insecurity and sadness - which I agree with. I see porn as a particularly bad example of this. Do you think that the negative effects of capitalism are just to be accepted? '

Vezzie well when it comes to capitalism I dont own much, I dont care about buying stuff and I wouldnt get in to debt to buy anything. I am just not that type of person and I dont believe in keeping up with the jones, brands or buying things needlessly. I live minimalistically as does my husband. I think buying in to the media machine is stupid and the pursuit of the misinformed.

As I said I am not a fan of american porn or mainstream as its fake but definitely think there is a place for amateur, live and erotica sites like literotica. I of course dont think kids should be exposed to extreme or violent material but I dont think all porn is bad.

Sunny, I haven't backtracked. I just agree with some of what you say, and not the rest. I never meant to say condescending or inaccurate things about you - don't see how I could condescend to you anyway

"I do however think more women should influence what they like from the sex industry"

I don't want to influence the sex industry. I don't need the sex industry. It is purely parasitic. I already know how to fuck and how to bring myself off and give myself pleasure and give a partner pleasure and take pleasure for myself from a partner. I don't need any bunch of businessmen telling me how to do it.

I feel sorry for people who can't fuck without porn. They must be so jaded.

Most people can fuck without porn but porn is just an extra to sex just like vibes, erotica etc. If you chose stuff that suits you and doesnt involve people who have been coerced I dont see the problem. I dont think porn is meant to be telling you how to do it. Looking at visual images of sex is a turn on for many people in the same way the written word is.

In answer to dittanys post I think that a lot of people like watching porn but mainstream doesnt actually cater to most peoples tastes as it is so fake both the sex and what they do etc. The men I know agree so I think that there should be an overhaul of the industry personally. If the sex wasnt so fake and extreme in porn then it would change attitudes.

Yes well since none of us have any way of knowing who is coerced and who isn't, that's not an option is it Sunny.

Anyway, back to teenagers being swamped by porn...

Actually I think Sunny has made 2 arguments:

1. It's up to every individual family in the country to ensure their children don't engage with modern life.

1. There's no point in doing 1., because we can't fight it.

It makes me wonder if she's an agent of the Anti-Feminist-Light-Brigade or something. I mean, what is the point of all this, Sunny?

You do realise we're feminists, don't you? And because we are, we are arguing from the starting point that the saturation by porn, of our children's consciousness about sex, is not something we are willing to accept, and it is something we will fight. The debate for most of us here, is not whether to fight it, whether it's worth fighting it, whether we can fight it, it's bloody well how we can fight it.

So could you be a dear and stop telling us not to bother?

Have you missed the massive portion I wrote on how going in to schools, getting people the same age and peer group to go in to schools.

Have you missed the bit where I place emphasis on youth groups and the community.

Have you missed the bit I said about seperate sex lessons to discuss issues like this that relate to their gender where people can ask the teachers questions in privacy if they need to.

Have you missed the bit where I said that something needs to be done about the fact that many teachers and parents shy away from sex education and teaching children these things so they get mixed messages.

Have you missed the bit where I say campaigns to do with teenagers and sex/porn etc need to have teens as the active participants and actually make them relate to their lives.