Feminism chat thread

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Hello

Been saying for ages that it'd be nice to have an area for just saying hi, letting off some steam and sharing the little things that don't warrant a whole thread.

So, I'll start...

My brother made me :o:o:o last night when we were talking about some crap sexist song. And he said (in all honesty) - well this is just one of the millions of ways the patriarchy keeps itself going.

Also got the updated email from the Feminism in London conference this morning - can't wait.

Anyone else?

I am well able tohold my own and argue my point. I don't expect to be welcomed in with kid gloves. i know it;s not group therapy

I guess I just wish this section didn't feel so dominated by a few posters who do tend to 'talk down' to other posters sometimes.

I am a socialist feminist and struggle with the way some posters put sex/gender (whole other argument) above class in discussions on oppression. I don't want to massively go into that now(am about to have dinner!), but I guess I just wanted to chip in briefly that sometimes this section can feel very closed and narrow.

I have this argument within the Labour Party by the way (what is a socialist doing in the Lab party, you may ask? ). i.e. yes, yes, it is all very well that you lot are enlightened and know it all, but if what do the non-Labour members think and how can we get them to see things differently, without patronising or lecturing?

excuse garbled language and abundance of typos.

This is not criticism btw. Whatever I may think, I think we can all agree that women talking and thinking and debating and joining forces is a great and necessary thing.

My suggestion didn't have any 'we/they' ideas in it...the 'we' bit meant 'mnhq'.

I don't just mean dittany, and I am not going to be petty and spiteful and name four or five posters.

I have a lot of respect for dittany and am always interested to read her opinions on things by the way, so please don't assume you know exactly who I am talking about or that it is ^necessary& that you do to understand the point I am making (it isn't).

I have stated my case when necessary on an abundance of thread sin the past. I am just saying that the atmopshere in this section can be very off-putting to many other feminist posters. You are entitled to disagree with that.

Yes, I frequently do and will continue to do so.

Thing is - not all feminists are, can be , ever will be or, indeed, should have to be feminist theorists or academics. We do not all read every piece of feminist literature available and cannot all articulate ourselves to the degree that other posters cam. So of course, the most knowledgable and articulate psiters tend to dominate this section, as with other sections of the site.

However, if we genuinely want this section to be more than just a small group of very clever women discussing issues among themselves (i.e. a closed club), the atmosphere in general does need to be more welcoming and inclusive of a broader range of feminist perspectives.

Ignore that if you want to, but it's a fact.

what I would really like to see, I think, would be threads within the feminism section in which groups of feminists who are different from the dominant MN radical viewpoint (and I agree rad fems to dominate here - it's very unusual and is why I like it ) could get together. NOT as a ghetto but as an addition to the threads in which we all mix together, more like safe haven threads, eg a sort of 'pro-porn feminists sign in here' with a request in the OP that the thread is not one for challenging the premise, kind of like we are talking about with the overall section itself.

then if someone who holds MN minority views is feeling battered on a particular thread they can go there to recharge batteries a bit, or you can point them towards it if they are wondering if they are the only one who thinks like that.

sorry, typo, 'to dominate' should say 'do dominate'

Tical the reason this section is dominated by a few posters, is because we're the ones who post all the time. I presume the same is true of the horsey threads or the stepmother theads or whatever. As someone else says, the only way to get the stuff you want debated, is to throw it into the mix.

I think everyone here is learning all the time, adjusting their opinions and views according to new things they read. I think there's this perception out there that the regulars here have set in stone opinions bout everything and without feeling qualified to speak for everyone else, I bet we don't. We're all here because we are interested in this, committed to it and want to learn more. We will listen and sometimes take on board valid arguments from a direction which is broadly sympathetic to feminism, or at least acknowledges that there is systemic sexism at work in society. I think the only people who are regularly derided, are very obvious anti-feminists whihc I think is fair enough.

As an occasional poster and full time lurker on the feminism section, I just thought I'd add my thoughts.

I don't understand why people find the section off-putting. It's an internet forum, not an exclusive club. There are going to be people you agree with, others you disagree with. That's life. And if people single me out for something I've expressed, then so what? I don't understand why people get offended by robust responses - these are all from people I've never met. I might find their opinions interesting and take them into consideration, but offensive? Why? I just shrug at anything deliberately set out to provoke and annoy.

I don't think it would be a good idea to make the section exclusive in some way, as some people might feel they are not knowledgeable enough about feminism to participate, and I am not sure that exhorting people to be polite is the answer.

However irritating trolls can be, or MRAs who come on with an agenda, I think the best answer is to engage with them as little as possible.

you do have regulars, but as HerBeX says, you get that on any board. I started a thread here once (about language and misogyny) and I didn't feel that it was a problem as a non-regular poster. I got lots of responses and some very interesting debate. Plus, some of the regulars are very knowledgeable and intelligent and with their experience make points well worth reading. You can learn a lot from them.

OK, well maybe the majority of you don't understand or agree with my point. I accept that.

lots of the discussions I see here are anything but academic, Tical!

TBH I don't think that having a thing at the top about the rules will do anything to stop trolls or people coming in because they fancy a ruck. And I think it may put people off from posting. So although I understand the reasons for the idea I'm not convinced, sorry. I don't think MNHQ would go for it anyway (could be wrong there of course!).

Hello tical

Yes I'm sure this section does come across as narrow sometimes, I know that my posts do. I guess it is a function of MN having a certain demographic of (mainly) women at (more or less) a certain stage of their lives. Many of us are married, most of us are straight, we all have access to computers etc.

I will be the first to admit that my POV is shaped by my life experiences, and that the reason feminism is important to me is because I am lucky enough not to be a member of any other oppressed groups. Having said that obviously I try to see things from different angles! And am supportive of other causes IYSWIM. But I know what you mean, I think.

I do agree that it can be a great place to learn a lot about more radical feminist viewpoints. I read this section most days. However, I post much less frequently (although fairly regularly).I just get a bit exhausted about havig to justify why I don't agree with the most radical viewpoints every time we are discussing a feminist issue. I don't know if that makes sense?

But I don't think it is just a section with very clever women discussing things among themselves all the tiem - some of us are really thick (that's a joke btw)

As with any interest group the same few posters do tend to be there, but there is always someone new and there are masses of lurkers who may not post for months while they absorb some of this different way of seeing the world.

My perspective is, taht there is so much anti-feminist message out there in the mainstream, that we don't need to dilute the feminist message here. Yes people may read and get enraged by what we're saying, but people who are genuinely interested, will nevertheless keep reading and at some stqage, join in.

BTW I also agree with whoever said that actually, this section is far more patient and welcoming of people with different views because we expect people to come in laden down with mainstream views. We are actually extremely gentle unless it's an obvious MRA or anti-feminist who we know is hostile to the vocalisation of the fact of women's disadvantage.

I can't understand why people can't just all respond to eachother with respect and good manners.

I do agree abotu having a place to recharge batteries, but I don't identify (yet) with any 'view' of feminism in particular because I am still learning. What I object to is the odd occassion when you have someone jump down your throat for posting something naive, even when you're trying to learn.

However, this isn't a witch-hunt. Just because you assume everyone's pissed off with Dittany, SAF, that doesn't mean that that actually is the case. Yes, I have found Dittany's posts to sometimes be rather abrasive, but it is not just her and most of the time I can't remember who it is, I just slink away, lick my wounds, and come back and start afresh. I think you have to have a fair amount of courage to do that, though, and it would be nice if the feminism section didn't need to include a trial-by-fire for MNers new to the topic. Just as it would be nice if feminists didnt' have to have anti-feminist rants posted at them.

Why can't we all just be nice to eachother!?

Hmm took ages to type that and thread has moved on, maybe I got the wrong end of the stick!

[smile]@alexpolismum

I do like the reading the porn rucks debates, which can be quite colourful.

Can I just say, Sardine (and all) - I seriously was not attacking Dittany personally in my earlier posts (in fact, big up Dittany . Even when I don't agree with her, she cuts to the heart of the matter and gets rid of woolly thinking. She is obviously a very sharp mind).

It was more, I guess, a sort of frustration with never feeling part of the club, because I come from a slightly different perspective and disagree with some of the dominant - or let's just say regular - posters on some big issues.

Well you have Dittany and you have SGB and you have Xenia.

I don't think they agree on much

I mean of course we are all very important but some are a little more interesting than others

Annd genuinely no offence as I love reading all their posts even when I disagree wildly

Tical - sometimes dittany and I agree absolutely. On other points she and I disagree fundamentally. We have big rucks sometimes. I still absolutely respect her though and I hope that's mutual.

I think debate is really good actually - it helps me crystallise my thinking and challenges the woolly bits.

But I can understand you feeling undermined if you're coming at feminism from a different viewpoint all the time. Sorry to be a bit dim but how does your view differ from the majority on here? It would help me to understand where you're coming from.

Yes and Claig

Not sure about the club thing

I bet there are loads of socialist feminists around Tical, I myself live round the corner from one of them who sometimes comes on MN particularly when I ring her up and harangue her to do so.

If you posted more often with your feminist socialist perspective, I'd ring her up and tell her to get on the thread and support you.