Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

Hmmm well lifeissweet I would dispute that

All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Catherine MacKinnon

"All men are rapists and that's all they are" Marilyn French Author, "The Women's Room" (quoted again in People Magazine) "All men are rapists and that's all they are ..." Feminist Marilyn French, People Magazine (Percent of reported rape or near-rape incidents = .07% [The FBI's Uniform Crime Report lists for the year 1996])

"[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which ALL MEN KEEP ALL WOMEN IN A STATE OF FEAR" [emphasis added] -- Susan Brownmiller (Against Our Will p. 6)

"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership." -- Andrea Dworkin.

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks." Andrea Dworkin in the Philadelphia Inquirer, May 21, 1995..

"Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman," Andrea Dworkin, Liberty, p.58..

"One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible." Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 21..

"In every century, there are a handful of writers who help the human race to evolve. Andrea is one of them."--Gloria Steinem

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference." -- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime"
(p. 86)

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..." -- Sheila Jeffrys

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan, "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going to Far," 1974.

"Who cares how men feel or what they do or whether they suffer? They have had over 2000 years to dominate and made a complete hash of it. Now it is our turn. My only comment to men is, if you don't like it, bad luck - and if you get in my way I'll run you down." Letter to the Editor: "Women's Turn to Dominate" Signed: Liberated Women, Boronia -- Herald-Sun, Melbourne, Australia - 9 February 1996

Toward a Feminist Theory of the State. Catharine A. MacKinnon, 1989, First Harvard University Press (paperback in 1991) [a legal treatise comparing and contrasting feminism with COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM]

"It is not only men convicted of rape who believe that the only thing they did that was different from what men do all the time is get caught."

"If sexuality is central to women's definition and forced sex is central to sexuality, rape is indigenous, not exceptional, to women's social condition."

"Under law, rape is a sex crime that is not regarded as a crime when it looks like sex. The law, speaking generally, defines rape as intercourse with force or coercion and without consent., Like sexuality under male supremacy, this definition assumes the sadomasochistic definition of sex: intercourse with force or coercion can be or become consensual."

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson "Amazon Odyssey" (p. 86)

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." Catherine MacKinnon in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, p. 129..

"[Acquaintance rape] is more common than left-handedness, alcoholism and heart attacks." Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth (in the feminist attempt to build a case that "one in four" women have been raped in America.)

"[R]ape represents an extreme behavior, but one that is on a continuum with normal male behavior within the culture." Prof. Mary Koss of Kent State University (1982)

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comins, Vassar College Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52..

As cited in Andrea Dworkin's "Right-Wing Women" "...I submit that any sexual intercourse between a free man and a human being he owns or controls is rape." -- Alice Walker in "Embracing the Dark and the Light," Essence, July 1982. (Feminists believe that marriage = ownership).

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, (editor of MS magazine)

A young woman at the University of Pennsylvania who wore a short skirt complained of a "mini-rape" because a young man walked past her and said, "Nice legs." (Camille Paglia and Christine Hoff Sommers, "Has Feminism Gone Too Far?" Think Tank with Ben Wattenberg, Produced by New River Media, Washington, DC, November 4, 1994.)

"Female heterosexuality is not a biological drive or an individual women's erotic attraction or attachment to another human animal which happens to be male. Female heterosexuality is a set of social institutions and practices... Those definitions... are about the oppression and exploitation of women [by men]." Marilyn Frye, Willful Virgin: Essays in Feminism, 1976-1992 ( Freedom: Crossing Press,1992) p.132.

[Author comment] And finally, a very disturbing account of the lengths feminists are allowed to go to in our educational institutions in order to vilify and demonize young men.

At the University of Maryland, some female students posted the names of male students selected at random, young men about whom they knew nothing, under the heading "Potential Rapists." The message was that all men are potential rapists, though the men actually named probably did not find much comfort in that... (John Leo, "De-escalating the gender war" U.S. News and World Report, April 18,1994, p.24.)

Blimey! Did you just look that all up now?

Dittany, check no-one has been accessing your hard drive!

I have been part of feminism boards and know a bit about this.

Patriachy love, not men, patriachy. It is actually a different thing. The culture we live in makes the gender differences. The culture teaches men a sense of entitlement. That is what most of what you have c&pd is saying.

Feministst don't hate men, they hate the system where men are the dominators.

Lifeissweet, so you are suggesting women need protecting from themselves? We should take away their free will because they may do something they regret later?

So, you dug out some extreme feminist quotes to show that objecting to porn is unreasonable?

Well why for patriachy is the term men used so often as in men as a homgenous group. dO you agree with this then as a feminist?

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

'So, you dug out some extreme feminist quotes to show that objecting to porn is unreasonable?'

No I am just saying that in response to what I wrote here:

Well many men are hated by certain supporters of radical feminism does that mean you will stop being a feminist?

and lifeissweet telling me that feminists dont hate men.

Well some do does that mean all do? of course no. The same applies to the sex industry some is radical and extreme but not all at all.

Portofino - she's arguing with me because I said feminists don't hate men.

I can't be bothered to go through and put all of those quotes in context.

What I would say is that I don't feel the need to justify or defend the comments of every feminist in order to feel that feminism is overwhelmingly a force for good in the world, and that many women including myself have far more rights and opportunities as a a consequence of it. This is despite feminists having very little power.

I do not feel that the sex industry has overwhelmingly been a force for good in people's lives, despite it having immense wealth and power.

It makes it far harder to overlook the hideous sexism, racism and homophobia that is rife in the most popular forms of pornography, when pornography as a whole is not really offering something amazing to society as a whole.

I really think you need to come up with a better analogy to pornography, because comparing an industry to forms of human relationship like homosexuality or to political movements like feminism doesn't really make sense.

Pornography is first and foremost about money. The obvious comparisons are other luxury good industries, that convince us to buy what we do not need.

I don't think patriachy is at all synonymous with men as a group. I think there are as many women as men propping up a patriachical culture. Look at this thread!

I think your analogy would also work better if you had some evidence that most feminists hate men. That would then match the evidence that most pornography shows physically punishing acts being committed against women, which is very well supported by peer reviewed statistical studies.

If you could actually demonstrate hateful things being said about men by most feminists, I would stop participating in feminism.

Almost all employment is exploitative whether it uses your looks, body, mind, ideas or time. You're giving something you don't want to give freely in return for compensation.

In what sense is a woman raped if she has consented to the sex? She may not enjoy it but she has agreed to it in return for payment.

I will agree with you wholeheartedly that if drugs, blackmail, violence or similar factors are involved then that is wrong, immoral, illegal and unethical and I understand that those factors are very common in the 'pornography industry' to use your terms, but no-one seems to be willing to purify the argument down to say what is wrong with a woman consenting to sex in return for money if you remove all those extraneous factors. Other than an 'icky feeling' that it is wrong.

And you definitely CAN purify that transaction down even if it is very rare, it is not impossible.

.

Carmen - I think that some women do need protecting, yes. Not from themselves, though, but from growing up in a country with a culture that tells them that it is perfectly ok to sell your body and to ignore any negative feelings about that. A culture that regards them as pieces of meat.

I am not saying that the are incapable, or feeble, just that the culture is putting them in harms way.

I would not take away their free will. I would wish to give them true free will by letting them live in a culture that doesn't see their bodies as a comodity.

My post was unclear. Here is my question:

Why is being paid for sex unethical, whilst being paid to write books or to run a marathon or to act in a play acceptable?

What makes sex different?

Obviously sex is different to all other forms of human interaction. People who argue otherwise are being disingenuous. Nobody behaves as if sex is just like any other form of human activity, so I don't know why it is being compared to human labour.