Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

Sunny, I had sex at a young age too and although I thought I was old enough to cope with all its implications I wasn't - fuck knows what would have happened had I got pregnant. I come from a normal, stable family where men and women are treated equally and wasn't looking for approval or anything else.

The biggest influence on me deciding to have sex early was the low-level 'normal' porn in our culture; Page three, the sex guides in the tabloids, articles in magazines like Mizz and then Cosmo.

Sunny, even if your face is obscured there is always a possibility that your images are being viewed by people you'd rather not see you having sex. How do you feel about rapists and other abusers getting off on watching you?

A friend of mine was babysitting with another friend for her uncle. He came downstairs in the middle of the night, watched a porn film and then sexually assaulted his niece and raped her friend. So if you are sharing home-made porn with others don't kid yourself that everyone viewing it just regards it as a bit of fun between consenting adults.

Okay, fair enough, but what do you make of my point that some women are not coerced but end up being in the sex industry because it makes economic sense. Is that not coercion by society?
I also think some pro-sex industry activists confuse feminists with right-wing Christian fundamentalists

"Well thats your experience. Have you shagged every porn user in the UK? If so then that is millions of men. I doubt they all have sex in a uniform style."

no, the ones I've slept with who were into porn were crap in bed. The ones I've slept with who weren't were much more clued up about women's bodies.

'A friend of mine was babysitting with another friend for her uncle. He came downstairs in the middle of the night, watched a porn film and then sexually assaulted his niece and raped her friend. So if you are sharing home-made porn with others don't kid yourself that everyone viewing it just regards it as a bit of fun between consenting adults.'

Although unfortunate do you not think the kind of people that would do this would do this anyway. You honestly think before the influx of intenet porn this was less prevelant? What about the fact that rape in marriage happened during the start of last century when there was no tvs, media or porn? Did it make a difference? There are still going to be things like that go on (all though horrible) regardless.

I have argued on many threads about the problems of porn and why I think it is is unethical.

But the way Sunny is being responded to on this thread is making me concerned about the agenda of some people who are opposed to pornography, which is an issue SGB has raised in the past.

There is nothing wrong with having sex young, or having sex with people you don't love, or having sex with many people, or talking about the best way to achieve orgasm.

There is no link between pornography and age of teen sex anyway. The average age for teens to start having sex is no lower here than it is in countries where porn use is less common. If someone has evidence to the contrary I would like to see it.

Various people on this thread are crossing a line between objecting to the sexualisation of girls and women and objecting to girls and women having any kind of sexuality that is different to theirs.

But Sunny, porn fed this guy's desire to rape and abuse. Maybe without it he'd have stayed in his bed and had a wank.

Can you really be certain that what you do isn't feeding someone, somewhere?

Milly, in case that was aimed at me I agree that there is no problem with having sex young, or with partners you don't love, partners of the same sex etc. I see sex as sacred, yes, but that is different from saying it should only be within marriage. Beautiful, respectful sex can happen between people who have only just met. And I'm not a Christian.

I have no idea whether studies say that the availablity of porn encourages under-age sex but I can tell you that the low level, acceptable stuff that I was exposed to a a teenager did have a great influence on me. Maybe I am an exception.

Milly, sunny is talking about her own sexual experiences. That is only relevant to this conversation insofar as 1) she has been influenced by porn 2) she enjoys porn

Those are the two things under discussion here. It's nothing to do with being prudish about other people's sexual tastes. I happen to believe that porn constrains people's sexuality. I have lots of bizarre sexual tastes that might make people balk, definitely sunny by the sound of it, but I wouldn't post them here in justification of porn.

Milly R - Thank you. I think that some women go so far the other way to demonise other women who chose different sexual paths to themselves that they are just as restrictive and forced on to girls. I have read threads where women are told they must save their virginity and be the moral one etc. I think some of that is an overhang of the good girl/victorian way of looking at womens sexuality.

All sex and the sex industry is not just women giving something to men, many women get stuff out of it to and enjoy it whether that be the fantasy aspect, the turn on of doing it or the exhibitionism. As I said when in the strip club I worked in I knew a lot of women strippers that got very turned on when dancing for the sexier men. It was something they enjoyed it. I do think a lot boils down to some women not primarily focusing on the possibility of a woman getting abused but worrying about their partner watching porn or going in to a strip club or enjoying looking at page 3. They dont understand it so they demonise the whole industry including soft stuff and stuff that is consensual.

Spiritmum, I wasn't aiming it solely at you. It has come up a few times on the thread. But the fact that you personally see sex as sacred doesn't mean it is the only fulfilling way to view sex.

Yes but spiritmum I am saying YOU think its ok for 2 consensual people who have just met to have sex. However I have met others who say it is dirty, wrong, cheapens sex etc. You disagree with that which is your choice. However what if the Christian woman was forcing her opinions on you saying that we should push everyone to only have sex through marriage?

It wouldnt be right as everyone sees differently and views sex differently. Hence why this isnt a black and white issue.

Exactly, Sakura. Being against porn doesn't automatically make someone a prude. I have no intention of sharing what I like because it's something that I hold very private (not that there is anything wrong in sharing if that's your thing) but porn hurts too many for it to be acceptable.

Sunny, I am more than secure enough in my marriage not to feel threatened by porn, or page three, or strip clubs. But I do dislike them.

Mily, I'm trying to find the right words and I'm struggling because 'sacred' does have religious connotations and that's what I'm trying to avoid.

Where I grew up it was common practise to get a girl drunk and take her for a shag behing McDonalds' on the way home, if you could get her to stay upright or stop throwing up for long enough. I remember once being out with dh and his dad when a friend of his came in. He'd had a girl knocking on the door saying that his son had got her pregnant; the son was objecting because the girl was so drunk at a party that five or six of the boys there had had sex with her and it could have been any of them who was the father.

That's a world away from respectful, enjoyable sex between people who aren't in a relationship together.

So maybe it's easier for me to illustrate the opposite of what I think fulfilling sex is?

Yes that is bad spiritmum but I have neevr known anyone have more than sex with one person at a time or anyone be forced when I was underage and I went to a pretty 'rough' school as such. Everyone was nice to each other and it was all consensual and definitely didnt involve more than 1 person. Again there is a whole range of experiences from different people so again it isnt a black and white issue.

Sunny, I still don't agree with pornography though.

I want every girl to be able to have the freedom and space to develop her own sexual identity. So some people may decide sex is fun, or sacred, or experimental, or to be saved for marriage, or fun with boys, or with girls, with many people or with one.

So I don't want society giving out a message that women's sexuality should be one thing and one thing only. Our society is saturated with porn culture, and I believe that is stopping girls from having the freedom and space to develop their own sexual identity. It is pushing one message - women should sexually objectify their own bodies and put performance for others above their own sexual pleasure.

Now there will no doubt be a small number of women who find sexual satisfaction in performance and objectification. But most women will not find it, but it is become increasingly expected of them. That is not liberating and it is not giving girls space, any more than living in a fundamentalist Christian society would give them space to develop their sexuality.

And that is why I want people who use porn and intend to keep using it to consider the ethics and consider what they can do to limit the public face of porn. Because while you may enjoy performance and be happy for their to be sexualised images of women on the side of buses and on magazines in news agents and all over the internet so that when my daughter googles a well known children's clothes shop, pornographic images of women appear, I'm not.

I'm asking for porn users to stop imposing their version of sexuality on my children, who are getting old enough to start developing a sexuality of their own, but are not getting the space in our society to do so.

Spiritmum, I kind of understand what you're getting at.
I think that there is casual sex where people have no respect for each other at all. Then there is casual sex where people respect each other and find the sexual elements of the other person's personality appealing, even if the wider personalities of the two people aren't well matched for a romantic relationship.

So you can have casual sex with another person, rather than merely having casual sex with another person's body.

Yes, LG, I was also talking about DS, although I didn't say in my post that one of my children was a boy.

Thank you, Milly, that is putting it all much better than I was. I totally agree with you.

Well unless you move to a place with no media at all there is no going backwards. This is the same issue as womens magazines or body image etc. It wont ever change as we are in a world of millions of tv channels, internet and 24 hour media sources. All you can do is limit what your children watch and access whilst they are children however it really will never stop regardless.

I wont mind if they limit the public face of porn as most people in RL (except for my friends) think I am a 'nice' girl that would never dream of accessing porn, working at a bar in a strip club or making porn or doing webcam etc. I think they would be beyond shocked if they found out but that is because I still think the majority of females are pushed in to the 'good girl wouldnt do anything like this or enjoy it'. That is what I see more often in everyday life rather than the other way round except for my circle.

I think what I am trying to say is that in good sex you honour both yourself and your needs, and the other person and their needs. That's what raises it above being just a bodily function for me. If I'm hungry I might grab a cheese sandwich even though I don't really like them much, but if I want sex I won't settle for something I don't enjoy just because I have a 'need'.

Does that sound better than 'sacred'?

spiritmum: "Where I grew up it was common practise to get a girl drunk and take her for a shag behing McDonalds' on the way home, if you could get her to stay upright or stop throwing up for long enough."

That sounds like where I grew up, but only after around age 17. Before that there was lots of lovely, explorative sex when I was very young, 14-16 ish. That's why I think porn goes to boys' heads. I can't understand why boys who know girls' bodies and minds so well can turn into men who don't have a clue.

sunny, YOu still haven't answered my question: what do you make of my point that some women are not coerced but end up being in the sex industry because it makes economic sense. Is that not coercion by society?

sunny " I think they would be beyond shocked if they found out but that is because I still think the majority of females are pushed in to the 'good girl wouldnt do anything like this or enjoy it'."

Sorry, i think that's bullshit. That sounds like an American right winger's opinion. The good girl/bad girl thing is something made up by people who want to constrain women's sexuality.
Where I grew up it didn't exist. Sex was just something people did. End of. There was none of this "nice" girl stuff. The fact you think your friends would be "shocked" is quite telling. It's like a "nice" girl saying her dad would be shocked if she found out she was dating a black man. If race wasn't an issue for her, then the fact she was with a black man wouldn't be remarked upon either. It's the same for sex. If you have hang-ups about being a nice girl (or not) then you're going to think the sex industry is racy.