Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

'sunny, YOu still haven't answered my question: what do you make of my point that some women are not coerced but end up being in the sex industry because it makes economic sense. Is that not coercion by society?'

No I dont think it is. If you choose to do it then its up to you. Its no different to the kind of woman that marrys a man she doesnt like, love, respect or want to have sex with in return for money and a house. Eg gold diggers type of thing. Its not something I would do but if thats what someone chooses and doesnt involve coersion and they both get something out of it then thats up to them. If you are ruled by money and would only do something for the money not for the enjoyment thats up to you. Its not like the woman couldnt become a waitress or another minimum wage job and cope fine. (I am on near the minimum wage myself and so is my husband and it is enough to live on now and it was when I was living on a flat on my own at 17. The woman could of chose a minimum wage job and got by ok so thats her choice)

Sunny, of course we can limit it and change things! Iceland got rid of strip clubs. Britain massively reduced child prostitution. We can change the law and remove objectified images from public spaces. the world can change if we want it to.

If I look at the campaigns I was in involved with as a teenager, there were many that I thought would go nowhere and many I though would succeed, but I fought for what I thought was right even when there seemed to be massive public opposition.

I was wrong about which campaigns succeeded. I never thought the rules on promoting heterosexuality in schools would be abolished, or that rape in marriage would become illegal, or that lesbian parents would gain more rights. But public opinion changed.

On the other hand, I believed the sexual objectification of women would be reduced, rape would decrease, and so would domestic violence. That hasn't happened.

So I don't think we know how society will change, but we can all certainly try to be a force in creating the kind of society we want to live in.

As for children, there really isn't anywhere beyond my own small village I can take my children to in the UK where they won't see such images. Certainly not to a supermarket or a town centre. Also, my DS is 12 and over the next few years it is really not ethical for him to be getting all ideas of what his sexual identity should be from me - society needs to be guiding teens in this - and society is letting him down.

'Sorry, i think that's bullshit. That sounds like an American right winger's opinion. The good girl/bad girl thing is something made up by people who want to constrain women's sexuality. '

Trust me I got married at 20 and older people even ones in their 30s completely changed around me. People in my age group thought I was mental but the way I am treated has completely changed in every day life. I got told by my midwife 'its so refreshing to see a young couple do things the proper way instead of having kids out of wedlock'. I have had people tell me that your a nice girl and married so this doesnt apply to you and then proceed to insult people who are single mums/couples who had sex out of marriage. People do treat me way differently as soon as I said I was 20 and married everyone made comments as if I was on a single handed crusade to save moral values. My husband and I think its ridiculous because I am not conservative in that sense at all!

sunny, none of the women in your examples were born wealthy. That's my point.

I have massive problems with your "nice girl" ideology. As I said, where I grew up that didn'T exist. Sex was sex. A lot of it was female-driven. This nice girl idea is a warped religious thing from the US as far as I know.

Most people don't get married these days because they can't be bothered or because they got knocked up.
I got married young as well (23)
This has nothing whatsoever to do with porn

Sakura - I had women in her 30s who saw me in my work uniform who came in to a cafe I worked in. She saw me out sitting at a bar in a mini skirt with a friend not even drunk at 8pm and said I thought you were a nice, married girl! Eh? I was 21! Am I not allowed outside. I would never get that from someone who was my own age at te time they all thought we were mad getting married young but a lot of older people acted like I was doing something amazing or was an exceplinary model of a young woman.

All I am saying is I think the nice girl thing exists and is seen as a thing good girls dont do even in this day and age.

why do you care about the nice girl thing so much. I can honestly say I have never noticed it. I've noticed the double standard, so if one girl slept with loads of boys it was commented on among the boys. But I've never noticed the nice girl thing.

Maybe in the older generation Sunny. There is definitely a generation gap in this, probably pre and post internet generations.
But what I see around me is that the gold standard of womanhood has changed from chastity to being upfor it all the time.
It's still female sexuality getting squeezed into narrow boxes.

I agree wukter, it's like "o ho ho, you wanted sexual freedom did you. Have this (scat porn, double anal.... )

I agree some areas of gone to far but I still think young women get conflicting messages eg be like this but if you dont then you wont be viewed in the same way but if you do actual admit to liking it or doing something then it makes you a slut/not a decent person etc.

Once upon a time it was expected that men should 'look after' any woman they got pregnant. It suited then to have sex be a massive deal for women, it wasn't something she'd do with a light heart and the man could be reasonably sure 'what's his is his'.
Now that expectation doesn't exist as strongly and contraception is much more reliable, so it suits to have women readily available for whatever, as it's only a laugh and why not?

So what suits women?

"Because while you may enjoy performance and be happy for their to be sexualised images of women on the side of buses and on magazines in news agents and all over the internet so that when my daughter googles a well known children's clothes shop, pornographic images of women appear, I'm not.

I'm asking for porn users to stop imposing their version of sexuality on my children, who are getting old enough to start developing a sexuality of their own, but are not getting the space in our society to do so."

ITA.

You know Sunny I think my objection to the sort of webcam/amateur porn that you are talking about comes down to 'nothing happens in a vacuum'.

I don't wish to make any judgements about anybody's personal sex life. However as soon as that sex life enters the public domain, as far as I am concerned, I am in a position to object.

I used to work for a subcontractor of google. The job was supposed to entail all sorts of things but it really came down to trying to sort out the referencing so that the www is not overwhelmed with porn.

If it weren't for people like me doing that job then just about every common word ('girl' 'clothes' 'urine' 'glass' 'trousers' 'shoes') would come up with the first 10 pages full of porn sites.

So in order for the internet not to be just one big pornfest, but actually a useful and amazing tool for gaining and sharing knowledge, people like me had to spend their working days cleaning up after the porn makers and consumers flagging up their presence so that kids don't get pictures of women having bottles shoved up their anuses when they put 'glass beads' into a search engine.

BC...great post.

I agree, Beachcomber, and with Wukter, too. Sunny, I don't care if you and dh film each other or film your friends, it's the fact that you then put it out into the public domain where it feeds something far more abusive.

What suits women?

I think freedom from economic interdependancy on men would be a good start.
Freedom from monogomy would suit some women but most men would not financially support a woman who got pregnant by another man's baby, so society is set up so that men know the woman they're with is carrying "their" baby. THat's why women who sleep around get called slags and men don't. It's all about control.

"if you do actual admit to liking it or doing something then it makes you a slut/not a decent person etc."

I've never experienced this personally but I know some men do think like that. MOst men don't, though. Stay away from those types of misogynists

if sunny films herself and her friends I have less of a problem with it, personally. As long as no cash transaction is going on then it's totally separate to the porn industry.

Yes Sakura, good point.
I suppose it's the difference between knitting your own jumper and buying one originating from a sweatshop.

The issue with Youporn and/or the porn industry is that the effects on society are the same, even if the effects on the participants are worlds apart.

All the amateur/adults consenting stuff just legitimises the rest of it.

It sends out a message that some people choose to do this ergo most people choose to do this and you as a developing teenager are a prude/jealous/insecure/uptight/boring/constrained if you don't get that.

"It sends out a message that some people choose to do this ergo most people choose to do this and you as a developing teenager are a prude/jealous/insecure/uptight/boring/constrained if you don't get that."

Ah! When you put it like that...
Of course it shouldn't be open to the general public....hmmm...maybe they could have clubs or something, I don't know..
Anyway, I've realized not paying doesn't exclude coercion. A woman might have a bully of a boyfriend who'd get her to do it for free.

But people should be free to express their genuine sexuality and if that includes exhibitionism & voyeurism you can't really oppose that.
It's the way that limited view of sexuality has taken over all other variants that I have a problem with. Mixing up genuine sexual kinks with the way we all should be.