Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

Tabouleh, I think it is a bit unfair to pass judgement on Sunny's sex life! There is nothing wrong with being open about sex, and although I haven't read the thread you refer to, I don't get the impression that she is unfulfilled.

well I got the impression that sunny was "passing judgement" on everyone else's sex lives - maybe not

it is just that if you post THAT MUCH about your sex life it comes across as a bit "look at me, I ALWAYS ORGASM, I watch porn/make porn" - I therefore feel that it would be valuable to ask sunny whether she thinks the porn has had any negative impact on her at all?

Also for lurkers, just a brief Wiki thing on Positive Feminism.

Sorry. Should read 'brief Wiki thing on Sex Positive Feminism.'

Actually, teaching women about their cervixes, including how to check them, is hugely important and empowering.

Please everyone actually read Sprinkle's bio etc instead of trusting Dittany's use of an out-of-context quote. Annie does not want porn to be about date rape, being taken advantage of, etc. She teaches tantra and promotes respectful, joyful sex.

Exactly Proleworth 'sex positive feminism' is such a misnomer - they might as well call it 'ok with the objectification of women within a male dominated framework nonfeminism'.

(Twisty at I blame the Patriarchy has a good post on this.)

I always thought the pretty obvious difference between sex and other activities is that sex involves emotional and physical intimacy generally achieved by putting oneself in a position of vulnerability with another person you trust and want to do that with.

The kinda big obvious difference though is that sex can lead to pregnancy.

Internal damage and STD's seem quite important to me too.

If sex were like any other activity then the next time my accountant neighbour helps me out with my accounts instead of helping him with his English I'll give him a blow job. If he does my tax return I'll let him sodomise me (that way I can't get pregnant). No doubt my DH and his wife will be cool with that.

I would also say in answer to Carmen's question about sex as an activity is that whether or not you think it is different to other activities the fact is that it is the Patriarchy itself which tells us that is so (girls who like it = sluts, etc). Therefore within its own constructions of taboo, monogamy, marriage, etc, sex is considered to be different and it is hypocritical of the patriarchy to suddenly change all the rules when it suits. (And also very confusing and sending mixed and damaging messages to its citizens).

If sex were not emotionally, physically and chemically different to other activities then it would be OK to do it with children, rape would just be considered as plain assault, people who work in porn wouldn't end up drugging themselves and having PTSD.

I totally agree with the comments made by Dittany that commodifying sex leads us to all sorts of trouble.

Anyway I hate the pron industry because the vast vast majority of it is about exploiting, humiliating, degrading, damaging, hurting and frightening women so that other people can jerk off (either because they get off on seeing women hurt or because they haven't yet 'found their humanity').

I would suggest that anybody who thinks porn is just fine and dandy goes and spends a day on a set - there was a journalist who did this a while ago and came away traumatised (and he wasn't the one getting fucked).

For me the 'yes but some porn is good' line of argument sounds, in construction, very similar to the 'but some rape accusations are false' argument.

Sorry if this has been said, I am not reading 12 pages.

For me there are a couple of issues. The first is the economic cash transaction. Women are poorer in society as a whole and we have a class system, which means that for some women it makes economic sense to sell their body in some way. I think this is a design-fault in society and until this is eliminated we can't say women "choose" porn or prostitution.

(However I do believe that some women can enter prostitution without suffering damaging psychological effects. I do believe that. The question is how many etc, and I don't think we should let a man who wants to buy a person's body off scott free)

Porn in that sense is worse than ordinary prostitution because it's casted and directed by someone (let's be honest, a man). Often the woman can't stop halfway through, and it's catering to a market.

If the woman was unpaid then I "might" believe she was enjoying it, but she gets paid so we can assume she can't be enjoying it that much, otherwise she'd be doing it for free.

The other issue I have with porn is the lack of spontenaity and abandonment. It always looks very false to me. I'm shocked that some men actually believe the women are enjoying themselves. SOme women might be okay having sex without those things but then they'd do it for free, wouldn't they.

Could anyone here get really into sex with a tea-lady hovering in the background?

Actually I'm undecided about the damaging psychological effects of prostitution. It's a difficult one. I cannot override women's truths with my own version of their experiences, which is why if a woman says she doesn't mind prostitution, as a woman I have to take that on face value. I believe some women are in denial, and some have had life experiences that effect them. HOwever, I think there is definitely a possibility that a woman might not mind having sex with men. THen again, "not minding" and "enjoying" are two different things. Some women might "not mind" having sex with their husband, but that's hardly what the 70s feminists aimed for was it

I think we can only see what women do and don't want after liberation. But women aren't liberated, especially sexually, so it's hard to tell what's what.

not mind having sex with men as a prostitute

'sunny2010 since you are SO OPEN about your sex life confused - I noticed on another thread that you had 3 very particular positions which you need to be in in order to orgasm.

Do you think that this may be due to conditioning from all the porn you've watched?

Perhaps if you stopped watching porn and started concentrating on you and your sex life with your DH then you'd find you sexual relationship became closer and more fulfilling.

I have to say that I have never read so much detailed explicit info over such a short space of time about any other MNer.

I am thinking that porn is a bit like fast food - instant gratification but ultimately empty (calories)?'

Err no not really the positions I use are the ones that rub against my clitoris. Surely that is how many women orgasm? I dont see how it makes a difference how you orgasm and I have sex with my husband most nights even 2 weeks after childbirth as we love each other and love having sex with each otehr. We have lots of other intimacy in our lives such as holding hands, sitting watching movies, cuddling, texting, love notes etc. Just because you like this kind of thing doesnt mean this is all you do. Its just part of our lives together.

I am just using my examples to show that women can have sex young or enjoy porn etc. Its not weird or strange,and it doesnt mean they are some kind of sexual deviant or empty and meaningless. Again just like in the sex under 16 thread if you like something like this then you must be a weirdo .

I just want to say how much I agree with Tabouleh's posts - I was trying to get at something similar when I said that sex is something sacred and to cheapen it renders it worthless. I agree with Tabouleh in that I would find my relationship with my partner less fulfilling were I to treat sex as something for myself and others to exploit. Yes, sex is a natural urge but it is also something else, something that transcends that and to mess around with it seems very foolish.

I also agree withg wutker's point in that because of its addictive nature there will inevitably come a time when one or other partner using porn will need to push the boundaries ever further in order to get the high that they want, and sooner or later someone will get hurt. And no, this isn't what I want to see in my society. Just as women (esp. young women) are pressured into sex because they think their partners will leave them so it is inevitable that some women will be pressured into having sex on webcams etc to keep their partner happy. It's easy to see that they can be made to feel there is something 'wrong' with them if they don't because the idea that sex is nothing more or less than a recreational activity akin to playing football is the modern orthodoxy.

I think that there is nothing wrong with being open on threads like this. On that sex young thread I got accused of being a miserable young girl who was so desperate my future husband and I had to go to argos for our wedding and I must have missed out on life and experiences. (That was someones preconceptions of couples getting married young).

For having sex young I got must be from some messed up family involving divorce and fragmented relationships or my parents didnt bring me up right.

On here for admitting I like something a bit different but where noone is coerced or forced. I am bringing down society ruining my daughters and opressing all women.

These are all preconceptions of different things and I think by righting my piece then it might challenge those.

I have seen people jump on people when they have said they want a threesome or want to be swingers, want to breast feed - bottle feed, do just about everything on here. People have got to realise though people do things differently and everyone isnt all the same. The same goes for sex. Personally I couldnt care less if someone had 1 partner from age 14 forever or a different man every week. I know people are hurt in the porn industry but just as many women are hurt by picking up by curb crawlers and in RL relationships.

The sex industry isnt perfect but neither is most things. Surely it is better to regulate these things such as prostitution, porn etc and have sexual outlets where women and men are willingly and consensual?

I worked in a bar for a strip club for a while and the women I met where intelligent, fun, assertive. interesting women with their own lives who werent coerced at all. They always used to say people who wanted to ban it werent thinking that many enjoyed it. I knew a woman stripper who went out with a man stripper and both were a decent couple with normal lives. They worked in a regulated place with very strict no touching. The bouncers and owner looked after them everyone was treated fairly etc. Of course there are strip clubs where women arent and are coerced and often immigrants forced to do extras but they arent all the same. The kind of people that run the latter would just go underground if banned and the same goes for porn.

yes women enjoy porn sunny, nobody is disputing that. The question here is whether people's manic pursuit of orgasm justifies the existence of the porn industry. And women orgasmed long before the porn industry arrived. I happen to believe viewing porn stifles people's creativity in the bedroom. MY experience tells me that men who watch porn are shit in bed.

' I was trying to get at something similar when I said that sex is something sacred and to cheapen it renders it worthless.
'

Its funny you should say that because I had a virgin Christian woman say the same thing about being with more than one person that the one she marrys. Its fair enough if she wants to do that but she thought anyone that had sex with more than their husband/wife 'cheapened sex and made it less sacred'. I suppose you wouldnt agree as you have had more than 1 partner in your life.

That doesnt make me, you or her right we all do things differently. That is up to us.

also, your example of needing a particular position for orgasm is one of examples of I'm talking about when I say porn is "stifling." WOmen can orgasm without having intercourse at all but porn doesn't teach that, of course.

'MY experience tells me that men who watch porn are shit in bed.'

Well thats your experience. Have you shagged every porn user in the UK? If so then that is millions of men. I doubt they all have sex in a uniform style.

'also, your example of needing a particular position for orgasm is one of examples of I'm talking about when I say porn is "stifling." WOmen can orgasm without having intercourse at all but porn doesn't teach that, of course.'

i can orgasm through vagina with the fingers. Anyone I really dont see this as relevant as I didnt learn to have sex from porn. It is no good trying to prove my sex life is rubbish in order to try and make yourself right. This is just like those posters who come on and say if you have a threesome you are desperate, you are doing it for the man, how sad etc. I have never had 1 but if a couple chooses to that is up to them. I dont see why people should start insulting peoples individual sex lives just because they wouldnt do that.

I am concentrating on peoples ridiculous assertions that everything with any half naked man or woman in and everything consensual should be banned in case some people are coerced. I am just challenging that I dont think that is fair or true.

Thanks dittnay - I read the 'false rape accusation' thread and then read this one right after - the similarity was striking

I have also just come up with a idea for some 'ethical porn' (even though I think that is a contradiction in terms).

Scene 1.

An average looking woman who has had no cosmetic surgery and an average looking man are sitting chatting before going to bed at night.

They get in bed and one of them says they wan to make love - the other says they fancy it too.

The screen goes black. (to protect their intimacy)

Scene 2.

A couple of mornings later they decide mutually that they want to make love again but don't have time as have to get up and go to work.

Scene 3.

On another occasion they want to have sex with each other but before they have time to begin one of them has to get up, put a robe on and go and tend to a child (no I'm not advocating children featuring in porn!) and the other falls asleep in the meantime.

End of film.

Do you reckon its a goer or do you think the porn barons will laugh at me and get me to recast a woman who looks like an under-age Barbie and a man (or several) with a massive penis who engage in double penetration of the woman, cum shots and close ups of hairless genitals and painfully stretching female orifices? Will they want me to change the title to 'Teen whore takes it up the ass till she screams'?