Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

'I think MillyR's list could be used to explain why massage is different than sex. It still makes sense'

What is the difference between massage and massage with a happy ending? Personally I have always thought that myself what is the thing that makes one ok and the other bad?

Following through on the arguments put forward so far, then I believed there would be discussion about children and that you or Sunny would argue that your children had a right to become a prostitute of their own free choice.

No offence meant. Sorry I did not mean to make a personal dig.

I do not think prostitution or porn is always a choice for the participants. Therefore I think it is totally wrong and mysoginistic to consume it.

I love sex. I lay my cards on the table. I have had a lot of it and I think it's a fantastic human experience and it is so important. It is important because it begets life, but it is also important because it feels so good in body and in mind. If in a loving relationship it has even more meaning, but even as two people who have just met having a consensual fumble it is brilliant.

I think it would be horribly depressing for that experience to be no more special than doing a job. I think the people having sex for money with people they don't necessarily have any sexual chemistry with (I may not have loved everyone I have slept with, but I have at least fancied them) is cheapening that experience for them and I think it's a shame.

I don't necessarily think that it's always en expression of heartfelt love, but it is always special because - as I've said above - it involves excitement, and trust, and respect.

Sex for money is none of the above.

I do see what you are getting at Carmen.
Probably it is to do with reproduction, and the customs/taboos/whatever go to far back into the mists of time to be easily teased out.
Also sex & sexuality seem to be pretty high up on our culture's agenda, which makes it The Most Important Thing In Anyones Life Ever. Also a buzzword is 'express yourself'.
You must feel pretty inauthentic to be falsy expressing yourself in the most important arena of your life.
I don't know. I'm musing, because it's not an easy question to answer.
.

TBE/Milly

Look, I'm not a heartless bitch. I loathe exploitation and I see it in many, many places. Personally, I put my efforts into working with pregnant women in the US who are being exploited, abused and sexually assaulted by the medical industry. I buy free range eggs and boycott Nestle.

However I have a background in performance, much of which comes very close to the knuckle. I enjoy exploring and questioning sexuality through that and loathe attempts by censors to stop my work or the work of others. I've seen a performer cover herself in shit, stick vegetables in her vagina. I've seen a man bleed all over the stage. It's emotive and shocking but it's valid. Humans should be allowed to use and display their bodies as they choose.

I'm really interested in this argument about selling sex. My /instinct/ is that there is something wrong with it, but I'm not sure why. I definitely believe it is possible to happen without any exploitation. But intellectually, I can't find a reason why sex is different from any other transaction.

I'm not trolling. I'm looking for an answer to that. Why is my instinct right? What am I missing?

OMG. I'm going to bed. Way out of my depth now!

"Sex is different from a massage because you use your genitals in sexual intercourse Carmen. Masseuses don't use their genitals to give a massage."

What makes genitals different from any other part of the body?

What about medical experimentation or allowing student doctors to examine you (paid)?

'"Sex is different from a massage because you use your genitals in sexual intercourse Carmen. Masseuses don't use their genitals to give a massage."

What makes genitals different from any other part of the body?

What about medical experimentation or allowing student doctors to examine you (paid)?'

Exactly and no one has answered my question what is the difference between a straight massage and a massage ending with masturbation to orgasm?

I think my last post and yours were crossed Carmen. I too feel it's somehow different and wrong but as I said can't properly articulate why.

But getting into the sex industry (and I'm not talking about sharing videos of wanking husbands with fb friends ala Sunny ) is usually the last resort for people who are desperate. So for that reason, it's unethical and wrong.

Carmen, I have to go, but I think we have kind of covered one of the major points, which is that sadly, sexual behaviour between people is not always the wonderful thing it should be. Because there are so many problems in the world with sexual exploitation and consent, sex cannot be viewed solely as being the wonderful thing that it should be. Because that is not the reality for so many people.

The other argument (that we haven't really discussed that much) is the way that the sex industry has had an impact on people, particularly women, who grow up surrounded by aspects of it in daily life. This is leading to all kinds of problems about body image, self esteem and developing a sexual identity that is about pleasure rather than a performance for others to enjoy. I think this some of this is straightforward and some more complex, and reading Susie Orbach and others on psychology has made me more convinced of the process by which these problems develop, rather than just looking at the end results. I think that is the kind of thing you maybe would like to look at - but it is hard to explain in a succinct post.

But I certainly don't think you are cold hearted, and I think you are putting forward good arguments. I just get frustrated that because of the historical fight left wing people have been involved in for sexual liberation and freedom, we are now finding it hard to find ways of putting forward critiques and campaigns against pornography.

Pornography is more sexist, racist and homophobic than mainstream media, and yet it seems to exist in some kind of moral vacuum because it is sexual. So I think the discussion of why sex is different is a good one for you and Sunny to have been picked up on, because in many ways the idea that sex is different is what protects the sex industry from receiving the criticism it deserves.

TBE... Hmm. There are plenty of jobs which stand a good chance of violent injury though. People get their legs blown off on military service. People die in coal mines.

I tend to agree with lifeissweet's idea that sex 'done right' is one of the nicest things people can do so to take away the 'niceness' of it feels like a very destructive, harmful thing. But one could make the same argument out of one night stands or wanking or whatever. What sex 'means' and 'feels like' is different for everyone. Therefore I don't think you can make universal rules.

Dittany... as for the performers? Well the woman with the shit and vegetables was giving a free performance. She seemed to enjoy it and talked in great length about it afterwards. The audience were primarily academics and students. But why shouldn't she have charged for it?

Sunny, genitals are clearly different otherwise you wouldn't be displaying yours on webcams and getting off on other people displaying theirs.

Yes Milly, I think you have a valid point in that the pornography industry (and the whole entertainment industry at large) has made humans see other humans through a very distorted lens. There is a whole lot wrong with that.