Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

Ordinary work is about selling the labour of your body.
Prostition/porn is about selling the body itself. It's usually the last thing you have to sell.
When it's consensual sex, you give it freely.
Nobody wants the the books you write, or to watch the marathons you run, or more prosaically the walls you build. Which are usefull, enduring things.

All they value is your cunt, for 5 minutes.

Sunny - it is to do with the exploitation of women, so next time you are consuming porn then consider the inequity of women within the porn industry, this would bring you to a logical conclusion, and then you would not be happy with your participation in the porn industry, if you truly value women.

But honestly are you a troll?

I have noticed that you jump on these threads often.

Brilliant Brilliant post Wutker.

Interesting arguments but I still think you can pick holes in all of them.

There's plenty of things I wouldn't want to do with my dad or in front of my children that aren't sex.

The women-being trafficked argument is extraneous. Yes, some women are trafficked in prostitution. Some workers are in sweatshops are in the clothes industry.

Talking is a major part of adult relationships but we do that all the time in jobs.

The pregnancy argument is interesting and perhaps closer to the crux of it.

I suspect the real argument is something to do with sex being considered sacred or an integral part of humanity, but I wonder whether that's a universal truth. Some people have sex with one person who they adore. Some have dozens of one night stands. I don't think sex holds the same meaning for everyone.

Dittany... I don't quite understand the question. How would I feel if my play wasn't successful but I could make the money by fucking the audience? I have felt like that! It doesn't really bother me as a feeling. Just means I have to make a play which is as satisfying for the audience as fucking, I suppose.

Ditto MillyR - brilliant!

Wukter... How about a massage? All they value is your hands for five minutes.

I don't think Sunny is a troll, and I think she is engaging in the debate and being honest in the process of doing so.

pinkfizzle - No I am not a troll. I dont think porn is wrong overall as I said because I know a lot of people that make it and I do it with my husband. I am not saying all porn is rightand some isnt extreme or forced but I think a blanket ban on all of it is unenforceable and extreme. What if some people do enjoy making it and putting it online? Should this be banned? What about lesbian porn that is made by women for women? Should that be banned? I think as with everything there is many grey areas and saying there should be a blanket ban on all of it is not thinking about it properly.

Also I said I consume porn but I also make it. The people who I watch in porn I also know through online/facebook etc. I know they they are consenting and happy to do it.

Carmen, if you have children, would you be happy for them to be in porn films?

I have a feeling you will say 'yes, if that's what they want.' because your point of view leaves you no other option.

but would you really?

Lifeissweet... there are plenty of job choices I would prefer they didn't go into. I wouldn't like them to go into the military for example. I wouldn't be keen on them to go into modelling or acting.

No. I wouldn't be 'happy' for them to be in porn films because as with many other jobs, I think there is a higher than average chance of them being hurt mentally or physically, because as many have pointed out there are a lot of unpleasant factors involved in pornography (mainly because of the underground, unregulated nature).

However I defend their right to be in them if they absolutely choose to and I respect their ability to make a choice.

So why IS sex different from a massage?

Is the answer in religion? Or emotions? Or physicality? Or culture? Or reproduction? Or because sex should equal love?

I'm genuinely interested in this. There's a lot of exasperated flailing and 'Because it just IS!' but every answer falls short.

ok Sunny so you are not a troll then.

Well I am off - I really do not want to hear that Carmen and Sunny have children and will not mind if their children become consumers/participants in the porn industry.. because it is just too awful poor, poor children.

oh and Carmen traditional massage has nothing to do with sex... anyway bye bye...

Oh, pinkfizzle. Use your intellect here rather than making personal digs.

Do you really think I'm off to sell my children into slavery?

Carmen, I agree that there is exploitation in other industries which is why they are heavily critiqued and many people are involved in trying to do something about those industries.

But when it comes to the sex industry, there is no so much effort to address it and I think that is because of the context of sexual liberty. But we also have to look at the context that sexual exploitation is a massive, problematic global issue and pornography operates within that backdrop of exploitation and problems of consent.

I can see that I personally, as a person who wears clothes, have a moral obligation to campaign for the rights of workers. Many others do the same.

But why is it being left to people like me, who don't consume pornography, to campaign for the exploitation to be stopped? Why are the consumers of porn not doing so?

To parpahrase Dworkin, I am tired of doing the work of helping you to find your humanity.

In the word

TBE, plenty of work is physically gruelling.

Future choices? Well, everything changes those. If you join any communist party, you lose rights to a US visa. If you stay at home with your kids, you lose several years of career building.

The sexual identity point is interesting. But what does that actually mean? I don't know what my sexual identity is. It probably shifts quite a lot anyway.