class/social standing and Feminism

[sparky159]

is there a place for working class people in Feminism?
ill answer my own post to as why im asking this.

Sparky - going to have a stab and answering your question as I see it but will probably talk rubbish.

Prejudice and discrimination ultimately come from fear. Fear comes from the ego. Whether our ego is teh result of conditioning or instinct or both, I don't know. Probably a bit of both. But everything we believe about ourselves and everything around us is a judgement, no more or less. Our collective judgements may be that this is a man and that is a cat and this is a tree which helps us to operate in a way which makes sense of teh world around us.

The problems come when we apply secondary judgements. So we get 'superior man', 'common man', 'working man', lazy man', 'powerful man' and so on (or women, religion, society, race, whatever). If you look at any of these and you don't fit with it, you may react through fear because your ego feel threatened, so at best you avoid it. Fear something enough and you want to subjugate it, or obliterate it.

Religion - well, as a former Christian I've never actually come across being told to kill someone and have never been through the Catholic/Protestand polarisation as exists in Northern Ireland. But I have seen the scorn poured on the Anglo-Catholics by the Envangelicals and vice versa, and the sheer loathing of the 'traditionalists' (i.e. anti-gay) have for the liberlas and reformers, to the point where the church splinters and fractures and teh in-fighting and political manouverimng makes Westminster grown-up. Everything was about division and separation which is why I walked out, first on organised religion and then on religion altogther, because instead of uniting me with my fellow sisters and brothers it divided me from them.

I suspect that somewhere down teh line we've been conditioned to be prejudiced to the point where it is instinctive - as happened with the Holocaust, European Christians had been taught to make Jews the scapegotas for centuries.

Xenia, my mum became the first female partner at the international (and very well-known) firm where she worked before setting up on her own. By doing so she opened the way for other female partners. She never felt she had to be ruthless or adopt male values to succeed, just be brilliant at what she does. Her being made partner changed the culture in her firm; sometimes one woman achieving for herself changes how women are regarded on a much wider scale.

Ab solutely. I think more people should realise what their example means to others. People say our individual decisonis are for us alone but I disagree. Our decisions are like stones thrown in a pond which have huge ramifications - including decisinos about whether you decide to stay home and adopt a life cleaning up after men or work etc.

I would disagree with your use of the terms ruthless and male values. Is it wrong and/or is it male if I like to be best? Is that morally awdful and does it mean I'm like a man and no women are like that? It's very difficult for women when they hear that how they are is supposedly not correct or is a male thing when plenty of women have characteristics which some might say are male and they should not be criticised for having those. In fact we should go round showing how different many women are from each other.

Xenia, it may have been on anothe rthread that someoen was equating 'ruthless' with 'successful' and saying that women don't get on because they aren't prepared to act like that, which is where my train of thought came from.

My mum has always known that her skills and knowledge were the best in her firm and still are amongst some of the best in the country. She will argue down anyone regardless of gender and background or position and most definitely will speak out when someone is wrong. She loves the challenge of her career. I don't see any of that as exclusively male or female but I know that there is a perception that women lack whatever it is (often called 'ruthlessness') that gets them to the top. That's not my belief.

But then my mum was brought up to believe in absolute equality in a family where her parents really were equals.

I wonder if the fact she went to a girls' grammar school may also have been influential?

Sorry for typos, fingers and brain never work in harmony.

I'm glad my daughters went to all girls schools and they aren't doing too badly so far.

Generally very successful people (a) love what they do (b) are good at it (c) work very hard at it - I can get so involved in my work - I would rather deal with some of it than scrub a floor or even hold a baby for 12 hours.

More women than men undre 40 are millionaires now in the UK so it's all good. Most will remain average IQ or as many under as over and a good lot over that 100 level wlil have no interset in their work at all except that is pays their mortgage. But some of both sexes put a lot into their work (and indeed their homes too - I've always argued successful men and women can make better not worse parents as they can be more intelligent, better at psychology of chidlren and better parents - not a popular view for the housewife brigade but I have the freedom of speech to make the point).

Many successful men and women treat their staff well though so it's not that if you're nasty you do well but you certainly need to be aware of your own genius as it were and too many women think they're useless. I suppose a lot of men and women are useless so they may be right but some who are great don't realise.

I think a lot comes down to home life. My mother and I'm sure her mother and from what I heard her mother's mother would not have stood for much sexism buit if you come from a family where women run around after men who never lift a finger and don't know where the hoover is kept then you're going to find it hard yourself to get on.

Class is notoriously difficult to define, I would not know where to even begin with defining my own class, never mind anyone elses. I do think it is still a powerful force in British society.

With regards to feminism I thik class ( as difficult as it is to define) is an issue. I watch with despair as affluent young women with choices can flirt with the porn industry adding to a climate of sexual exploitation that can be an irritation to them. Bit for women without those advantages the consequences are more keenly felt. The young girl on a night out from uni or the office may dress up as a bunny girl, go to pole dancing classes. While her working class counterpart is left working in the pole dancing club or making pornographic films as her choices in life are far fewer. What happens when her tits sag or her girth becomes a little larger over the year and men are no longer willing to pay for her. The "middle class" woman has progressed up the career ladder while the stripper/ prostitute faces rejection and poverty.

I come from working class poverty and knew that man women felt that stripping, prostitution, pornography or similar were all valid career choices as they had become normalised by the rest of society.

"Middle class" women need to think about how their decisions affect those women with less choices.

Xenia, loving what you do and doing what you love seems to be missed when career advice gets dished out, but if you love what you do and work hard and happen to have a talent for it, you'll go far.

I agree, my mum, my grandmother and my greta nan were all very intolerant of sexism and it's not something I grew up with. I do think that going to a mixed comp skewed my view of the world a bit though, albeit only temporarily.

My mum was and is a brilliant mum. She was never at the school gates and couldn't always make the play or hold my hand when I was sick, but she gave me self -belief and the chance to see and do things most people dream of. I am at the school gates and do do the hand-holding...not 'better' or 'worse', just different.

Those were good examples and indeed there are women who don't work who don't stand for sexism at home and others who work who do so you can't generalise. I don't think I've missed a carol service or sports etc of any of the 5 children in the 26 years I've and them except may be one or two and I've been lucky I'm not in a job like teaching where you can't get time off for that kind of thing but what children most want is love and security and certainty so if they know X always happens they tend to tlike that where X is daddy comes to school events or the nanny does and the parents are around at XYZ time. Babies love routine and it makes them feel secure I think.

Studies show children are happiest when parents are. If the working mother or father is always moaning about work or the housewife moaning aboutw hat she has given up for the children the children hate it. if the parent enthuses about work they love or is content with how life is the child is happier.

I got off the piont of the thread a bit though which was about claas and feminism. Plenty of working class women are fighting for equal pay rights even now including those Birmingham ones who won £200m this year and it's great that they do. Feminism doesn't need a speical language or books. it just means people being treated fairly whatever their gender and that is not hard to understand and anyway there are lots of (a) rich working class women and/or (b) clever working class women. And the fairness must go both ways - husbands shoudl have an equal right to stay home with a baby if they prefer that. There should be no forcing by the motyher to become a housewife nor shoudl one have to work and the other not if they both don't agree that.

brilliant post tiptree.
I do agree with some of your points Xenia, however background has a massive impact on your options in life. In my case, for personal reasons, I couldn't live with my parents after uni and I received no money from them. I got V good grades and tried to further my career but was blocked at almost every turn. JObs in my field required internship experience but to get it you had to be self-funded. Many asked for voluntary work experience but I had spent all my summers cleaning in old people's homes or working in the service industry to make ends meet.
I am forging my way into a field I love right now, but I have had to go the long way round. And I do see people from school who were thicker than me doing very well for themselves because their parents bought them a car and an interview suit when they most needed them.

Ah! I remembered the other problem. I wanted children. I remember that being part of my plan and I wanted to take care of them myself, having been left in lots of sub-standard child-care when I was small. So that obviously influenced my path in life too. So shoot me

Urgh, internships. I know a graduate who was offered an 'internship' in what my day was called 'working as a receptionist'. It was only a firm of builders ffs.

But it's also career choice. Some careers you don't need those leg ups. I don't remember anyone buying me an interview suit nor a car etc. and I wanted lots of babies too but worked full time happily. I would certainly agree that certain tings we're born with like good looks, brains, or into - a wealthier home can help or hinder us. Too much wealth doesn't always do that much good either - look at the sons of Lord Glenconner who just died.Their problems seem typical of some but not all people born into certain wealthy families.

No one would shoot you but they might say you reap what you sow - people earn X because they always worked full time as I did and others might earn Y because they don't work and others earn Z because they chose to be leading surgeon whereas others chose to wash the feet of lepers rather than find the cure for leprosy so earn a lot less and all can be happy in any situation. it's just the whingers who are never happy at anything who have the problem.