class/social standing and Feminism

[sparky159]

is there a place for working class people in Feminism?
ill answer my own post to as why im asking this.

Well I am discussing it to avoid getting on with packing and because I want everyone to stop deluding themselves that the fact they earn 22,000 and work at a desk is going to help them in any way when David Cameron denies their child cancer drugs as part of some kind of NHS cost cutting exercise and realise that we need to have some kind of solidarity.

That's probably because the stereotype is 'Shameless' = underclass = working class.

Well MillyR you are still here so I want to say thank you for your great posts.

And to all the other for v v interesting posts.

I think the MillyR's about being married or not sums everything up in the feminist wc/mc debate; as a woman, whatever your background, values, and perceived social standing, if you are not or not anymore married, you've had it, you are meat, whether you are dealing with a plumber or a barrister. (males)

And YES YES YES to SAF about being sold on all being middle class now, when all we have to lose are debts and malleability.
SAF, you are an other voice calling in the desert, when I was starting to think I was perhaps erring dangerously towards conspiracy /persecution theories.
(Why would all those nice people at the top be party to anything so low?)

Oh well, you've all gone to bed haven't you?

'I didn't say it was poor - it is in fact more than the salary of most primary schools teachers, public sector workers and nurses, which is the point I originally made and you seemed to be disputing.'

Personally here teachers and nurses are seen as very middle class as they are in professional well paying jobs that pay as much as £20k a year starting which in Devon is seen as a decent wage and definitely not pin money! Enough to get you a mortgage on your own at least and have a decent standard of living. I know many young teachers and many live on their own and have their own mortgages and lots of disposable income. Their money also continues to go up every year, they get things like a pension and paid time off etc so thats why it is seen as decent job. I wouldnt see them as working class or poor but I suppose it depends where you come from and what the wages are like there. Here they are in some of the best jobs as 45% of people are on the minimum wage. This area is beautiful though and the property and surroundings are gorgeous. Most families have about 20k between them as a wage.

Anyway I didnt mean it to sound like an argument just that here teacher, nurse etc are some of the best jobs you can do.

I think another thing to do with class though is if you are bothw working class and have to work to pay the bills you dont get any of the feminist issues about how does what in the home, childcare etc because as you both work and you have to you both automatically share the chores.

I dont know of any men or women that dont share things out between them and do some each as you are both on similar wages so one doesnt think they are inputting more than the other. Also all your childcare is free so you dont have any issues surrounding that. In a way it is a lot easieras you are on a much more even playing field.

When I think of school friends, many of whom were and still are, working class it doesn't really square with the oppressed shit life that some are painting here.

I'd say that yes they are on low wages, no they do not enjoy their jobs but I don't think they feel oppressed.

To many of my friends feminism is about wearing sensible shoes and being, well, hairy.

And frankly they are too proud to suffer anyone telling them they are oppressed or feeling sorry for them. Thinking about friends, I'd say they see inequality but would rather sort things out for themselves than be tied to some ideolgy

Trying to pigeon hole people into classes based on jobs or even income doesn't work, I don't think. My perception of teaching is that it is a skilled profession; I know quite a few women who have trained as teachers almost as something to do that fits in with their children's school hours rather then because of the income, and I also know another teacher whose recent weddding would have paid for a house outright (or two in Grimsby). DD1's teacher is a farmer's daughter and the farm is owned, not tenanted. But farmers tend to be land rich and cash poor.

So where do I fit?

No profession, didn't go to university. Daughter of a successful mum. Grew up going to Henley and Epsom and tea dances at the Waldorf. Went to an East London comp. Married at 20 to a very cockney son of a single dad. I live in an affluent part of the countryside in a house we own outright, have little debts, claim no benefits except CB. The dc go to our small village school rated as 'outstanding' by OFSTED and will transfer (allegedly - not if I have anything to do with it) to one of the best State secondaries in the country. .

Sunny, I have a similar situation with my dh in that we never argue over who does what. Most days I cook and I iron the kids' clothes because I enjoy it, but I'm quite used to lying on the sofa reading a book whilst he vacuums up round me and I rarely wash up.

'I'd say that yes they are on low wages, no they do not enjoy their jobs but I don't think they feel oppressed.'

Thats a shame semicolon I think there is some drawbacks to not having loads of money such as me not being able to have 3 kids but the good things are if you cant be bothered to go to the job you do anymore most jobs pay the same so you can just move.

I get £5500 in Childcare for free a year and thats for one kid. I would get double that if I had another and if I had a good job I would have to pay that myself and then I would probably resent it!

I personally do a fun job and enjoy it. You can have more of a laugh and banter when you are at a low paid job because there is no need to impress anyone lol. I dont have any issues surrounding not being equal to my husband as we both earn the same so he doesnt see me as someone who supports him but we are both the same.

Sorry semicolon I read that totally wrong and thought it said they did feel oppressed! Sorry its an early morning!

THat's an interesting post, semicolon. I've writen on here about my great nan, and how she'd go collecting for families in her part of the East End who had fallen on hard times. That was her answer to the poverty: to dress up (she dressed like someone from the middle classes) and go to the better parts of London and tell people about the families she knew who were in need and get enough money to pay for the doctor or put food on the table.

I think that recently certain aspects of feminism has taken away our power. I remember reading Vicki Woods on going to a political debate where one of the young women in the audience asked her what the GOvt. should be doing 'to make women's lives better'. Her reply was that it is us that make our lives better, not the Govt. Obviously there will be some women that the Govt. should do more to help (victims of DV for an obvious example) but still a great deal of it should come from within us. Instead you only need to look at some of the threads on here to see how women turn on each other over issues that really aren't that big a deal.

We also have a media that gleefully makes women feel insecure, much of which is generated by women spreading their own insecurity. I recently read an article in a, 'intelligent' women's mag about women and guilt; the writer had passed up the dessert trolley at lunch becase she'd have felt bad about tucking in. But instead of choosing to feel good about making a healthy choice, she and her friend felt guilty and miserable, envious of the men troughing down cake and ultimately decided to tell all of us so that we feel guilty and insecure about our choices, too.

I think it is the middle classes that worry about having to look perfect and have all these things to fit in with the media, I also think its more the middle classes that worry about not eating a lot and worrying about having a salad on a date because of what the man thinks etc or whether a man whistles at you or whatever.

The working classes worry less about appearances in general and dont take everything as a slight against them as a woman. I never got any of the guilt about putting my child in nursery or staying at home or not as it is just a given that you will work. I suppose it comes from working class men and women being more equal economically so that means they see themselves as more equal to each other. I will admit to thinking that a lot of the middle class thinking on this site is people worrying about pointless stuff in the grand scheme of things.

And I agree Sunny - teaching, nursing, working for the council - these are the plum jobs in Glasgow because you get reasonable wages and conditions.

Yes where I grew up it was all about families helping each other. And it still is in so many areas. In fact DP is a w/c boy and his huge family are just down the road. And we all help out.

I think there is a suspicion of people trying to ' help' they would be offended if you suggested their lives were lacking in some way.

And jobs like teaching and nursing give you skills for life; they open up the possibility of relocating to other parts of the country or even emigrating. Australia has very strict entry criteria as we all know yet actively recruits nurses from the UK. The ethics of that may be disputable but what is clear is that nursing is a respected, skilled profession.

If I'm honest I think working-class women are just as likely to worry about their appearance, or not worry about it as the case may be - it's just the amount that gets spent that varies. And you'll find plenty of working-class women at Weightwatchers or Slimming World. But I think there is an insecurity and competitiveness in the middle classes that you don't get elsewhere.

I think in a household where both people are doing less well paid jobs a woman is more likely to be the main carer for children, more likely to work part time or not at all. Working class men do seem to be more traditional when it comes to gender roles. Stands to reason really.

Doesn't mean that feminism isn't an issue for all classes but in order to act you need to afford it.

Swallowed, I would be interested in your interpretation of working class...

'Most people have to work in life.

I'm more interested in financial independence, that's a real marker for me. Who has the savings (if there are any), who has the pension rights? Who controls the income and so on, that really is at the root of it all'

My husband doesnt even have his own bank card when he wants money he gets it off me and we share my bank card between us. Its a joint account but we chopped his card up so we only have 1 to keep track of money. He doesnt even know who our mortgage is with or any of our bill providers are or our internet banking codes. He doesnt even know how much he gets paid a month as he just leaves it to me.

I dont think that means I am more equal than him. He just trusts me and I do that type of thing. He makes more money than me anyway as he does a lot more hours. I think we are married and a team and I would neevr lie to him or abuse the situation. I think to many marriages dont trust in each other.

ive been reading the posts with great interest.
i have been hearing what everyones saying but when it has got into things like earnings ect ive got confused as-well-i cant count.
i think that isnthad a good idea when she said about talking about what things mean to where someone is on the social structure-so...

well-i feel that the "class system"does still exist-as some bright spark[in society]
has come along and decided that i am "underclass".i find this offensive.
i feel that this is another way of "keeping us in our place"also.
the fact that someone can come along and say this and nothings really said about it-to me-this is telling me that im not equal to others.

ok-being lower down on the social structure means to me....
not having choices.
the first time i looked at the sn board[a few weeks ago]i was gobsmacked.reason being-
i saw people talking about these diffrent kind of therepies.
i didnt realise that you could go and get diffrent therepies[i know youve got to pay for these]because basically-no one has ever told me this could be possible-
ive always been told what i am going to do with my child reg therepies.
i felt sad when i was reading these things because i know i could of tryed to save and maybe given my child a better chance.
the help im getting now from the nhs is good but ive really had to fight for it[and be in a diffrent area]but prior to this-the help was bad.if i would of known these things in the past-it might of made things easier for me and my daughter.

other things like-
i wont claim for free school dinners-reason being-i dont want to-just because im at the bottom of the structure dont mean i want everything free in life-let me have some pride.
others get on my case about this and tell me ive got to claim this-they dont even realise that i might have some pride.[im not against others claiming this-this is just my choice]

you can be piss poor and still have some pride.

my washing machines broke-ill try and save for another one-i dont want anyone telling me i should go for a social security grant/loan.

Very interesting to come back to this.

Semicolon if I can just pick up on something you said about 'wearing sensible shoes and being hairy'. That's an interesting point.

It does bother me that there is this perception (again) of feminism being all worthy and hand wringing and not being of practical use, not helpful.

And again, it's a lind of stereotype, isn't it. Me, my mum and my sister all identify as feminists yet I don't recognise us in that description at all!