class/social standing and Feminism

[sparky159]

is there a place for working class people in Feminism?
ill answer my own post to as why im asking this.

which opinion or positions are the ones alienating women, do you think grace?

I'm not sure that all women are aware of the inequality in their lives TBH. At least not aware that if there is inequality it is possibly linked to their sex as opposed to anything else IYSWIM.

I agree that's there is a 'soap-boxing' element that can be off putting Grace but don't agree that we should rename it something more cosy...if that's what you mean of course!

I suppose the difficulty is that you have people who have just discovered it, people who are in the process of learning, and people who have studied this for years, sometimes as an academic subject.

There have been calls for a "feminism basics" thread but I think that is something different to what is being talked about here.

I don't think that we can ask the people to monitor how they are posting TBH. If people have studied it and use a lot of long words I guess we just need to ask them what they're on about!

sparky I love reading your posts BTW they often contain a fresh POV and are always very engaging, they stir the emotions. I think you have something of a talent TBH!

I don't think that anyone on here is / would look down on someone else because of their posting style. I would hope not anyway. These are all shared experiences we are discussing.

The first feminists were 'sufragettes' so there's an honourable history to renaming it! I didn't really mean cosy, Janos, simply that the word itself now represents a lot of things I didn't sign up for.

If you ask a non-"feminist" woman if she believes women's rights & recognition are the same as men's, she WILL say No. Feminists of my ilk are more 'equalists' or something ...
... Added to which, my 'equalist' views include everyone who's treated worse than a healthy white man. 'Feminism' only covers women.

I do seek for consciousness-raising as and when I can handle it. I'm currently engaged in my therapy project on what "being a woman" means to me - it's going to take bloody ages, it's so complex (and, of course, patriarchal.) This sort of thing is way too much for a busy person to take on. You simply can't expect Ms Everyday to be able, or willing, to engage in detailed discourse over every single aspect of male domination; there's too much of it!

I've no idea whether my post has clarified anything at all - baut am offering polite advice, now, that I'm butting back out of this topic for reasons outlined above :)

I touched on this issue in my post on the academic feminism thread. Dont want to repeat myself here.

Feminism should address the needs/wants of all women but historically it has been dominated by middle class (white) women.

But I dont think this is either groups fault. There are very few women (and men) who understand the issues of people from a broad income/class spectrum.

I'd just like to support Hassled's comment about asking about things you don't understand. It can also be helpful to the original poster of a comment that has puzzled a reader. Surely, nobody likes to be misunderstood? So please do ask, and the sooner the better.

Isn't there an old thread about defining some feminist terminology?

IfGraceAsks wrote - "If you ask a non-"feminist" woman if she believes women's rights & recognition are the same as men's, she WILL say No."

Really? I think she is more likely to say "yes" because non-feminists include many women who believe that men and women have already achieved equality (as in "The Equality Illusion" etc.), and that there is no need for feminism these days. They are "equalists" too but not, of course, in the sense that you mean it (equality still not achieved).

Again I would say that I know many women who don't see / don't agree that they are oppressed / women are oppressed in this country. Who wouldn't identify as feminists because they think equality is already here or because they do not want it.

A lot of women still buy the whole "different but equal" stuff, and the "it's natural" stuff, and the "men are like this and women are like that" stuff.

What's wrong with different but equal?

That my friends who believe in "different but equal" see it to mean that it's "natural" that a woman should have the home as her sphere and the man have all the other stuff as his, that the housework and ironing and cooking and childcare and all of that stuff is automatically hers (meaning she ends up working much harder than him) and the whole thing is packaged up as being the epitome of "female/homely/motherliness", when in practice what it means is that she works her tits off and her bloke does whatever he wants and never has to change a nappy.

My friends in these set-ups identify as "non-feminists", they believe that the "traditional" ways are the best. I don't understand it myself. But I think it is premature to say that all women recognise their own oppression.

And on a personal level I don't believe in "equal but different" because I think that there are far too many people of each sex who display characteristics more common to the other sex, to make it a sensible starting point for anything.

We're all individuals and how can we build a society where everyone can play to their strengths without hindrance - is a better starting point for me.

"We're all individuals and how can we build a society where everyone can play to their strengths without hindrance" is the definition of equal rights & opportunities.

I don't think the 'different' refers to personality difference more like physical difference etc.

And were all different from each other anyway so the 'different but equal' can be broadened to encompass the entire population.

As to feminism and class this may be because historically those at the forefront have been white middle class women which despite all good intentions they may have had their life experience would have affected their attitudes and what is the most important thing to fight for which may not be the same for women who are working class background or a different ethnicity.

However i think feminism has opened up i think it's easier for people of all different backgrounds to get involved although it may be that working class women may have different priorities in life which have greater importance on the way they live.

can i just say, onilomap, you have made my morning

and sgm, i had to stuff socks in my mouth to stop guffawing re butler.

i find that often the luxury of navel-gazing does depend on money though. sometimes you are too busying struggling through life to ponder on the idiosyncrasies/ inequalities of your or anyone else's position.

i think that's where the notion of 'class' comes in. but it isn't really class - it's money and time.

I agree that feminism has been mainly the preserve of well off middle class women but I think it's a bit derogatory to dismiss it as navel gazing. Certainly it hasn't served working class women or women of colour as well as it should have done, hence the emrgence of Womanism AFAICS.
Some women have more power than others, obviously. If they are feminists, it would be reasonable to assume they would use that power for the benefit of less able. But how do they know where best to direct their attention without listening to those they are trying to help?
My thoughts are muddled, I keep thinking back to Sakuras posts on a different thread about imposing our cultures on others and I think that Feminism [the kind of official one]may have been guilty of that kind of thing. Imposing middle class values instead of supporting working class feminism.
After all that I'm not sure what my point is but I am sure that Feminism has definitly had some major blind spots in the past but we shouldn't write it off or stop trying to reach out. Feminism should be for all women. More effort needs to me made to make sure all voices/situations/stuggles are heard.

with respect to feminism, what are middle class values? what are working class values?

i am increasingly confused on this thread where posters refer to 'imposing middle class values' as though we all are in agreement as to what that means

as someone not from the uk, i have no idea what you mean, please would someone be so kind as to clarify