class/social standing and Feminism

[sparky159]

is there a place for working class people in Feminism?
ill answer my own post to as why im asking this.

Ah, I don't class myself as a feminist either, so although I really enjoy these discussions I agree that gender is a divide we can do without.

I nail my colours to the mast of 'human being', and would want all inequality to end. However, because I am a woman I feel I understand better the inequality that women face, and I understand that inequality may have arisen because people percieve a gender divide, which is something I need to educate my children about. And I think it counter-productive to spread oneself too thin, so addressing inequality against women is something I think I can make a (very tiny) contribution to.

But if we remove all the divides we put up (gender, race, religion, class etc) do you think inequality might end? Or would all animals be equal but some more equal than others? Is dividing ourselves up into sheeps and goats a natural human instinct?

Hmm actually I supported DP through his MA - although he had part time mcjobs too - and in setting up his business on that salary- in fact I was his major investor. So it wasn't like this was a job I did for fun. It paid thecrent too!

Hard to believe but we managed.

Spiritmum
yep-i dont like being defined by anything either.
but i think its something we all do-even though we might not sometimes be aware of it.
[define each other]

i think its partly because of people needing to put others in "boxes"-if people can do this-it keeps them safe[the people doing it]
also-i think that we are conditioned to do this maybe?[defining others]

although i see others as equel-i still define others.

eg-say like i bumped into one of the neighbours-i cheerfully say hello to her and start chatting-she s the same as me-she s equal to me-but i still define her-why?
im defining her as i see in front of me a somallian woman-and actually-i could learn a lot from her[her life experiances ect]
two human beings-but we would still define each other.

people find it hard to define me[im third gendered]and i think this is why some people
dont like me for what i am/are discusted/and maybe even fearfull.

It's the working class women who are doing so well with equal pay cases at the moment (Birmingham council workers won £200m this year etc). White male trade unionists don't like it more fool them. The men got bonuses of up to 160% of their pay. The wmen got no bonuses and this is 2010 not 1880. So that is working class women ensuring more equality as against men and doing a good job of it.

Class itself is an interesting and separate topic. It is arguable that lower class hinders you more at work whatever your gender than your sex does but discrimination on the grounds of class or IQ or ability to talk or how pretty you are or tall is not illegal in the UK and perhaps nor should it be as for most people you can easily change your accent, dress etc and change class but it's harder to effect a sex change.

Sparky - it's instinctive, I agree, and sometimes I have to remind myself not to do ut! But at the same time difference isn't the same thing as division. My next door neighbour is on the face of it very similar to me; white, female, mum, 40-ish. But talk to us and we are very 'different' and that's good. And cultural difference is fascinating, we all have so much to learn from each other and our lives are richer for it. The problems arise when our differences (race, religion, class, whatever) are continually flagged up rather than our common humanity celebrated.

I'm glad Xenia raised this point of the legal aspect. I do think class ought to be covered by the Equality Act. Nobody should have to change their class markers for work purposes or experience discrimination as a result. The fact that you can change your class is not the point - you change your religion but religion is still covered by the Equality Act.

We don't have to describe or lay down what the middle class standard is; it should simply be obvious that if someone dislikes you or attempts to hold you back at work or sack you on the basis of a behavioural aspect that has no bearing on your ability to do your job, that is unethical.

So if someone dislikes you because you don't ski, or have a regional accent, or eat pasta salad for lunch, or have nail varnish of a certain colour, or go to Blackpool on holiday, that is their problem. People should not have to ape the upper middle classes just because they want a certain job. It is no wonder this country is in such a mess if only a tiny proportion of people, who have experienced a private school culture or who are prepared to make their personality into a facade in order to pretend they are from such a culture, are able to rise to positions of power.

Spiritmum
ah you know what-im not sure that i agree with that[diffrence isnt the same as division]
because sometimes diffrence causes division
then it can all become division instead of diffrence in some people minds?[can you see what im saying?]-
youve given me something to think about-thankyou
instinctive-hmmm-instinctive or conditioning?

when i was a small child-i was told to keep away from another child at school-
reason being-the girl was was from india.
[unfortunatly a lot of these things went on at the time]
me being me-i ignored this-and we became friends.
i liked her and i was intrigued by her-
bit like being conditioned not to accept/like her-but it was my instinct not to do this?

im wondering now about instinct/conditioning.

Many people do change class markers though. I changed my accent in certain jobs to fit in with the others. I think that sort of thing is hard to police because people naturally gravitate toward 'group identity' and all the constructs which define it as a group. No one forced me to my accent but I had to, to fit in.

It's only in certain industries that this is an issue though. These are industries dominated by upper middle classes - private ed, year round tan.

I don't think it's the difference itself that causes the divisions, it's what we think about difference. I used to be a CHristian so I've seen how different groups of Christians will come together to celebrate what they believe together, but also seen how the differences divide Christians off from one another (and in some places kill over it).

But then my kids don't see skin colour, so maybe what I should have said is that we are conditioned to see difference to the point where it becomes instinctive? And I don't think it come sjust from our upbringing (I grew up in a family that was very relaxed around race and sexuality) but our wider society?

SC, yes it is hard to police, but so are most forms of prejudice. It is only the most blatant cases that get to tribunals and so on. But if there were actual laws against it and there were some cases brought, that would start to change the culture.

As for 'nobody forced me to change my accent but I had to...'

We are back to the choiceless choice again. It is very much like gender roles. Pretend to be someone you are not or society will massively limit your choices.

I've been told on here that I'm not fit to be a TA because I speak Estuary. Because I grew up with such a huge mix of people around me from dockers to aristocrats and have never not been accepted I find the whole concept totally bizarre. But then I was probably being accepted because of who my mum is rather than as a person in my own right.

There was only one exception, where we were staying in a country house that offered a B&B service. My parents had headed back to town early but dh and I stayed for breakfast. The other couple at the table studiously ignored us, he behind his Times and she behind her Telegraph, until the owner of the house came in. She'd seen from the details my mum had left that she'd been honoured (by the country) and asked us about it. Suddenly the newspapers came down and we were worth talking to.

So funny.

I do modify my accent according to who I'm with but I do that with regional accents too. It's really embarassing if I spend any time with Americans because I end up speaking like them and they must think I'm taking the piss, but I don't mean to do it.

Spiritmum
[.......and kill over it...]
hmmm-interesting-but is this not about thinking but conditioning?
like-say like you belonged to [for instance]
a religeon-and you think that this is a good religeon-this is because of youre own thoughts-you feel good about it but further on down the line-you have a fight with someone that doesnt believe in what you do-
and youre told to kill them-would this then be conditioning[by that religeon]
[is it instinct to kill others?][would it be youre own thinking to kill others?]
sorry-not arguing with you Spiritmum[just in case im coming across as this]
im finding what youre saying very interesting and making me think.

I think some of us are just better natural mimics than others. After only 5 days in any country I find myself talking a bit more like the people's English which is being talked to me. I don't try in any way and it just happens. Other people can live in the US for 20 years and keep their UK accent.

I wiould not be in favour of making discrimination on grounds of class, looks, IQ, height, dress, ability to get on with people or whatever illegal unless it falls within one of the other existing categories of discrimination and then I would leave it to those categories. It also works both ways. Wasn't there a time when you couldn't get a job at the BBC unless you had a regional accent and I 'm pretty sure some left wing council's have discriminated against people who talk as I do.

Also depends on your sector. If a surgeon never has to speak all that matters is how good she is at cutting open the heart. If another job requires someone to be able to get on with and have common interests with one type of person such as grew up on the same council estate or whatever the requirement might be you'd be pretty stupid to hire people who won't get on with your customers when your competing companies are all doing so. Although recruiting from one category only in times of shortage of employees (not now) can limit your pool of good people and most customer these days are of all types so you need staff who will get on with a variety of people although it depends on your market.

In my time in job interviews I have been asked:

What my dad does for a living
If my parents are still together
Whether I get on with my mum
And was asked to leave an answer phone message stating my address for an application form for an admin job at the V&A - never received a call. Bet Araminta did though.

The class discrimination thing is hard to police because the industries dominated by upper middle classes typically recruit on s 'who you know' basis - look at the media or film industry. Even our local council FGS

In my time in job interviews I have been asked:

What my dad does for a living
If my parents are still together
Whether I get on with my mum
And was asked to leave an answer phone message stating my address for an application form for an admin job at the V&A - never received a call. Bet Araminta did though.

The class discrimination thing is hard to police because the industries dominated by upper middle classes typically recruit on s 'who you know' basis - look at the media or film industry. Even our local council FGS

Xenia, yes I agree that it works the other way. There was a report a few years ago about a woman who lost her job in the voluntary sector for being 'too middle class.' Having worked in the voluntary sector, I can believe that happened and is not just a newspaper fabrication.

But it shouldn't happen.

I think the ability to get on with people is rather different to hiding social class. Getting on with others is an important part of many people's jobs and people are often formally trained in such skills.

I was with my husband in A&E, and some RP speaking doctors were mocking a Geordie speaking doctor for his accent, at length, in a lift in front of me. DH was very badly injured and I was feeling very worried and vulnerable. I really did not want to hear that the doctors who could well be about to treat him held such prejudices against people with Northern accents even though they worked in a Northern hospital! If they had been mocking a doctor with an Indian accent, such an incident would be unacceptable.

Damn iphone

i think that its been a good thing for the working class that people from other countries have come and settled here.

Yes, Sparky, I agree with you. It has enhanced and developed working class culture. A lot of the preservation and growth of West Yorkshire accents (where I live at the moment) has been because of the Yorkshire accents of the local population that are of Pakistani and Bangladeshi descent. There is overwhelmingly a shared experience, certainly more than the white working class has with the rich, but that is almost never reflected in newspaper reporting.

Ah but they bring their own class prejudice with them. There is a current legal issue as to whether we expressly ban caste discrimination. Even over there they will want to kow if you're an untouhcable or parsee or whatever. It seems to be in the nature of mankind to categorise others something most of the major religions in their basic principles, sought to extinguish often without much success.

If you were Araminta you would have a daddy not a dad though.....so even the words used on a screen can help us categorise people.

Xenia, I generally find that I agree with your perspective on what society and human nature are like, but I generally think that should be mostly dealt with in a collective way while you seem to think women should mostly deal with that through their own individual achievements.

I think that is at the heart of a lot of left and right wing arguments, but it is often hard to focus on that in mainstream politics because of the extent of politician's dishonesty. Real debates are seldom had.

What collectively? I was not against the equal pay legislation and am just about old enough to remember the Equal Pay Act 1970 coming in. I do think most of women's issues are caused at home by individually being stupid enough to endure even a day of sexism by men and if they just said I'm pregnant would you like to start interviewing nannies for us or whatever their social level determines that childcare might be and ensure the man has as much responsibility as they do for getting home no time or to collect from nursery they would find their lives a lot easier.