class/social standing and Feminism

[sparky159]

is there a place for working class people in Feminism?
ill answer my own post to as why im asking this.

I think the thread diverged into a discussion on class because several posters asked for an explanation of middle class/working class values.

Which of course is very difficult to define.

"this is everyones fight and we need to see this."

Excellent post spark - very eloquent, and true.

Riven:
Here are the six British socio-economic classifiers.
Here are the Acorn social-geographic groupings.
Here's a link to Ipsos Mori's marketing sciences page.
If you haven't got £150,000 to spend on in-depth research, you just post to Mumsnet until you've satisfied yourself and others that you're more "Us" than "Not-Like-Us".
... and then claim your views can't possibly exclude the working class, since nobody's managed to define said class to "Our" satisfaction

That's a bit of a problem with discussions that incorporate class, people ask for a definition of class and no-one can come up with one.

Would it be possible to 'gloss over' the definition and say you know it when you see it and then continue the discussion. That seems very anti-intellectual but might work.

" 'gloss over' the definition and say you know it when you see it " That's the best definition you're going to get these days, without spending the money

Possibly the most sensible suggestion so far, wukter.

you can assume that everyone knows what these things are

but then your discussion excludes anyone not born and raised in the uk

hence my confusion over what 'middleclass values' or 'workingclass feminism' mean

Exactly, chibi. I tried to make a couple of posts explaining how we percieve 'middle class' and 'wotrking class' and then suddenly found myself accused of trying to be one or the other (still not sure which tbh) when I don't really care at all.

For me class has always been more about attitude and behaviour than money, but that makes it even harder to define.

Can we agree that it's impossible to define?

but it can't be simulataneously impossible to define middleclass, and yet refer to middleclass values as though we all know what that is

surely one presupposes a knowledge and understanding of the other

It's hard to believe you can't tell, chibi. If I go to India and spend one day with people who have a spacious, fully-functioning apartment and a servant, then spend the next day with a family that lives in 2 rooms with erratic power and no staff: I can tell the women of those two families might have different concerns and priorities, yes?

There have been enough posts in this thread to rough out the British equivalent. If you're interested in the complexities of our socio-economic structure, click the links I gave above. For a more holistic overview, a quick Google will bring you loads of interesting articles like this.

i am not trying to be thick grace

i am not from the uk

i know what 'has no money' and 'has money' look like

many posters on this thread have asserted that this is not the same thing as class

i should clarify - i don't understand what is being referred to when posters say 'middleclass uk values' or 'workingclass uk standards'

i have been trying to understand what these terms refer to, and butting my head against 'oh well everyone knows what they are' assumptions

and i am confused when it is asserted that

working class = can't be defined
woeking class values = we all know and understand what this means

can you see how this possibly might be confusing

I agree chibi and think that class is a poor referencing criteria.

What you perceive others class to be depends on you own experiences, upbringing, and what you think you are.

There are better ways of defining what we are talking about. I also have no idea what working class values might be. Or middle class values. I could guess but my ideas would probably be different to everyone else on here.

I think this is fairly universal. In the papers around the election they talked a lot about "middle class benefits" and "middle class concerns" and so on, and the response generally was "well what does that actually mean".

Heck, I didn't mean to insult you! I see what you mean, but I think you've got stuck on definitions. Forget them, they're out of date. We use "working class" as a euphemism. The description I gave of my street is what most people think of as "working class". It means, basically, lower class. Middle class is where everyone wants to be - unless they're upper class!

Those links are informative, you know. If you click through from the Guardian article, it shows you some fascinating economic graphs of British society, taken from Harriet Harman's equality report.

ok how about this: working class - household income of 2/3 or less average income, with no improvements expected.

Is it more useful to think in terms of low income, middle income and high income? Class shouldn't really have anything to do with need.

For some reason this thread keeps making me think of Harry Enfield characters!

I think people use class in very interesting ways on here.

It is mostly used to define what they are and what they are not.

So middle class can mean - academic, spoilt, detached from reality, aggressive, grasping, pushy, civilised, intelligent

And working class can mean - poorly educated, oppressed, noble, gritty, realistic, generous, fun loving, exploited

And the way it is used to describe oneself and others is very complex. But it usually is subtle shorthand for telling the rest of the board that their view is credible because it comes from experience or x number of research papers that can be linked to ad infinitum!

Added to this is the fact you can 'reinvent' yourself on the internet and the ways you choose to describe yourself can change depending how credible you want to be in that context.

So I could be working class - I grew up on a council estate and went to state school.
I could be middle class - my parents were teachers, I went to university, I worked in the media and make cupcakes and bunting now.

I don't think what we say on here correlates to real life very much at all

:) wukter.

I thought I'd play with a few lifestyle comparisons ...

working/lower class :
There's never enough money for food, electricity and we don't eat out
middle class :
There's never enough money for the second holiday, second car and the kids can't go to summer camp

working/lower class :
If my friends didn't help out, I don't know how I'd cope
middle class :
If my friends didn't invite me out, I don't know who I'd talk to

working/lower class :
My friends and I cut each other's hair; I use off-the-shelf highlight kits
middle class :
I've had to downgrade to a local hairdresser

working/lower class :
We sometimes go to the pub, but more often our mates come round for a pizza
middle class :
We've cut down on restaurants but the dinner-party circle's still going strong, thank goodness

working/lower class :
Healthy eating's important but I don't have time to cook cheaply from scratch
middle class :
Healthy eating's important but sometimes I just have to indulge in M&S cheesecake

working/lower class :
I go to aerobics at the community centre with my best mate
middle class :
I go to a nice gym with my husband

working/lower class :
My job's knackering, but we have a laugh
middle class :
My job's stressful, but gives me a sense of purpose

working/lower class :
My boss is an arse so I'm moving to another shitty job to get away from her
middle class :
My boss is an arse but there aren't any other jobs on an equivalent salary round here

working/lower class :
I never see my husband! We're on different shifts
middle class :
I never see my husband! He's always away on business

working/lower class :
I get the bus. It's a nightmare with toddlers and a baby
middle class :
I drive. It's a nightmare to find a mother-and-baby parking slot

working/lower class :
Should I be a SAHM? My income won't change much, due to benefits, but I'll save on the bus fares and have more time or healthy cooking
middle class :
Should I be a SAHM? Our income won't change much, due to saving on childcare & petrol, but I'm worried about my brain going numb

...

Grace that's brilliant

Oh! Thanks :)

Someone earlier was talking about how working class people don't walk around feeling oppressed. I don't think any group really does, and I think that comparing groups who have very marginal lifestyle differences and then claiming one group as oppressed is ludicrous.

The point is that there is massive inequality in this country and most of us are getting by on quite small incomes compared to the cost of living, while a tiny percentage of people control a huge amount of wealth and resources.

I do think that people dying because they can't afford cancer drugs or private health care is oppression, when you live in one of the richest countries in the world.

Trying to define lifestyle differences between people on 22,000 and people on 17,000 is pointless - especially as tax credits has flattened out disposabe incomes around the median.

Why £22k, Milly? The average is £31k so, at £22k, you'd already be on a low-end income

I think it went up to £33k last year, but couldn't find the info quickly.

Grace, I was talking about wages of teachers/voluntary sector staff/nurses earlier. That is why I was talking about 22 grand. Although nobody in my voluntary sector organisation who was a worker rather than a manager got paid as much as 22 grand.

That has been my point all the way through - a lot of women who consider their jobs middle class don't get paid an average wage. They get paid a low wage. So the whole idea of middle class women's concerns vs. working class women's concerns are a bit of a false idea when so few women actually earn a middle income.

But even the average wage is not that high when you consider the huge wealth of the UK as one of the richest countries in the world.

And for a family with 2 children, there is not that much difference in the disposable income of a family on 20,000 and a family on 35,000 because of the tax credits system.