class/social standing and Feminism

[sparky159]

is there a place for working class people in Feminism?
ill answer my own post to as why im asking this.

Depends which average you take. The mean is generally much higher than the mode.

There was an article about it a while back...

From here

The stat that the average wage in the UK is £33K is misleading IMO.

"The Office for National Statistics' Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE) provides some of the most reliable figures.

According to ASHE, "mean" gross annual earnings across all employee jobs in 2008 came to £26,020. You may think that's rather a high "average" salary. And if you look just at the figures for full-time employees, that figure rises to £31,323.

Another way of measuring it is "median" gross annual earnings. According to ASHE, this was the more modest figure of £20,801, across all employee jobs. If you are earning that sum a year, you are "Mr or Mrs [or Ms] Mid-Point" - precisely half the surveyed working population earns less than you and half more. For just full-time employees, the median rises to £25,123. "

The reason that I have this link to hand is that this stat was often stated by my right-wing work colleagues in "what the fuck is everyone whinging about they're all loaded let's cut the benefits" conversations

So IMO £20K (in 2008 so slightly higher how presumably) is a better average wage to use, which paints a slightly different picture.

Sorry to labour the point!

Ha ha - excellent post Grace. Spot on :)

You are right MillyR

I consider myself middle class but the most I ever earned as a journalist was £25,000 with responsibility for 15 people.

My male colleague who did exactly the same work as me earned, I suspect, alot more. But made himself feel better about it by insisting in doing all the appraisals

And isn't there some kind of unspoken thing that women do jobs for love? And that if you have a job such as journalism you're lucky just to be doing it because it's what everyone dreams of and the money is secondary?

Oh I think men do jobs for love too. I loved my job because every day was different and I met amazing people and I got to write. It's a great way to earn a living when you are young :)

But my starting wage was £10,000!

Oh, of course they do. But I think there is an expectation that women will, especially if hers is the second salary of a couple.

Or maybe that's a hangover from what I remember growing up!

What happened to my great long post from yesterday?

Not so much unspoken spiritmum - there was a study reported in the papers recently that women don't actually want to be paid well, they wanted otehr things instead.

they decided this on the basis of seeing that lots of women opted for lower paid, lower statues local part-time roles over higher paid full time roles some distance away.

They concluded that as so many women go for the former option, obviously women aren't motivated by money. Then they said that this was the real reason for teh gender pay gap, and that actually it was fine as women didn't want money anyway. men have to be paid lots of course, as they are motivated by money.

What they forgot to ask, of course, was whether women would prefer a third option, of well paid high status work which was part -time and local. And they forgot to take into account that for women who are the default primary carer for children, it's not really much of a choice.

From my POV there is a definite distinction between middle and "working" class. I remember feeling very ashamed when I was in "posh" establishments, not really knowing what to do with myself or how to behave. I think working class people are defined by the self-consciousness they feel in certain environments. Middle class people don't have that. Over the years I've become more middle class. My brothers are ashamed of me

Sakura
yep-i can see exactly what you mean.
when i was younger i felt like this aswell-
i felt a mixture of being ashamed/embarressed and awkward if i found myself in "posh establishments"-or around middle class people.
i havent become more middle classbut
i think that as time has gone on and ive had more life experiances and have to have had stand up for myself for all sorts of reasons
[eg-disability ect ect]i dont really have these feelings no more-
after all-if im equel-so is everyone else.
peoples people to me-i dont have a thing against people-but i do have a thing against
"the establishment/patriarchy?"
to see youre brothers are ashamed of you Sakura.

Nah, they love me, really. BUt I think it's interesting how "working class" men sometimes create their own distinct culture. They don't envy the fact I've become middle-class, if you see what I mean. They think I've sold out.

yep Sakura-i can see what you mean.
im not sure that it was just "working class"men that was like that though as i saw
"working class"women with the same views-
it was very much like someone had "sold out"-
and they was seen as "the brought middle class".

im ashamed to admit that i also thought the same view-but since then i met a middle class women and she changed my view on how i saw middle class people.
[there was a definate-them and us view before]

this is probably why i have a great belief now that people should try to listen to each other and try to understand each other as i think that this can break down barriers.
[and i think this is with any situasion]

yes, I still sort of feel I'm working class in many ways, accent, clothes and so forth. But yes, women friends might think I've sold out as well

Agree with your last point as well

yes it's hardly got anything to do with money at all, the class system. It's in the soil that you're grown in more than anything else

ooh,no, I haven't. Will have a look on Amazon. I've read Watching the English, which was soooo brilliant and it had a small section on class.

Sparky, I love what you say about listening to each other. That's why I don't like being defined by class any more than I do religion, race or political beliefs. Class prejudice is just as blinkered as any other kind whichever way it works.

Being conscious of artificial barriers such as class just divides us, and from a feminist pov keeps women even further entrenched in their place.

Thanks!