Do you think that men are oppressed?

[poshsinglemum]

For example; the traditional male role is to go out and work so technically men are oppressed by capitalism. Aren't they? Mabe not as oppressed as us girls are though. Thoughts please.

Here.

Can I just point out that:

a) that is a free market promoting right wing think tank with a vested interest in showing that companies "regulate themselves", and rejecting government intervention

and b)they are still acknowledging a pay gap! They are not saying that women ever earn the same as men, even when they "behave like men do" (because men never have children) . You could rephrase it as "among people ages 27 to 33 who have never had a child, men are still earning at least 2% more than women" - for obvious reasons this gap is likely to exponentially increase over a lifetime. "Women who hold positions and have skills and experience similar to those of men face wage disparities of between 2% and 10%"

That's the best they can come up with - in this highly selective set of variables there is a big paygap (I think 2-10% is big, there shouldn't be any gap) that we cannot explain by referring to experience of breastfeeding or anything other than pure sexism.

There's a difference TSH, which should be obvious but I'll help you to it. Feminist groups have an agenda which is the liberation of women from discrimination etc. They don't have anything to gain by distorting the facts, they want to find out what's really going on so they can do something about it. Whereas a right wing think tank funded by business, with an agenda that the free market is benevolent and companies should not be subject to regulation - they've got a lot to gain by downplaying the gap. They want to run their businesses and if they can get away with paying people less, and having discrimination unscrutinised, they make more money.

So you acknowledge there is a pay gap?

You do know that HH is a politician don't you? She was a member of the cabinet? She probably has statistics for these things, of a better quality than what you or I can dig off the internet. Funnily enough I don't see feminist as an insult. Just what do you think feminism's "ulterior motive" is?

'Sunny, I would be quite happy to support DH. So now you've "met" one.

Welcome to my world!'

Thats fair enough Sprogger but it isnt very common at all and personally I dont think it will ever be that common. Most women round here are ying to go off work or part time once they have kids. I know I was . Works more fun when you have the work/life balance of half at home, half at work as you dont get bored imo. I dont know any women that has to work full time with kids except for 3 women whose kids I have looked after that have had to because of financial reasons and they hated it. I felt really sorry for them but its just the way it is nowadays as things are expensive.

'A significant proportion of women in developing countries are oppressed, this is true. The Democratic Republic of the Congo springs to mind... But as you freely acknowledged above, women in "civilised" nations (eg the UK) have been emancipated - we have the right to vote, obtain credit without a guarantor, seek an abortion, live in comparative safety (unlike the women in TDROTC) etc etc. You, me and most other MNetters have thankfully never had to experience life without these "privileges". So I take exception to this idea, that we are all oppressed, by natural default Or for that matter "victims". Its nonsense. Of course some women will be discriminated against as a result of their gender, but this is not as pervasive as many feminists would argue. '

Exactly ShriekingHarpy I agree with everything you are saying. I am eernally greatful for what has been achieved in the past in UK but we have to strike a balance now and make sure all men and women are helped within the UK regardless of gender.

I do agree that in developing countries the plight of women is a big issue and would help and support any way of changing their situation.

TheShriekingHarpy - I read the same figures you quote from the other day on the ONS website. They make interesting reading.

Careful analysis and interpretation of the figures is needed. You are right that quoting the bald differential between average male and female pay is wrong. There is no doubt about it that there is pay and promotion discrimination on the basis of sex. However, there are many factors in play that need to be corrected for.

The gap between male and female pay that is least often talked about but most unfair is if you look at the highest paid 10% of the female full time workforce and compare it with the highest paid 10% of male full time workforce. Anecdotal figures I have seen leads me to suspect the highest decile of men are paid several times more than women once bonuses incentive pay and other fringe benefits are taken into account.

Slide down the percentiles though and the pay gap narrows and possibly now reverses as pay approaches minimum wage.

The picture is complex and to understand why the pay gap happens and has persisted a true and fair presentation and analysis of the figures is needed. Without that we cannot find solutions.

LeninGrad, I agree completely. That is why I feel some people's habit of throwing the "misogynist!" label around like confetti is both unreasonable and unhelpful.

Leningrad, you may well be right in that it's just one or two.

antimisandry.com/fathers-forum/n-y-high-court-says-mistaken-avowal-fatherhood-imposes-equitable-paternity-3260-post17943.html

In NYC, if you are told you are the father, do the right thing and find out later you were cuckolded, you still have to pay child support even if you have children who are actually related to you who will pay the price!

They also put our articles like this...

www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/6391918/whos-the-daddy.thtml

Women's right to decieve men about paternity for financial gain? Mmm, reminds of the woman's right to pretend she is on birth control to trap her boyfriend.

You know, where they force fatherhood on some young teenager rather than face the embarassment of being alone at prom? Once the baby is in the belly, there is no going back! I think alot of feminists are driven for a need for revenge much like the Edward Norton in American History X.

Nowadays with IVF and spermbanks there is no excuse for someone to be made a father against his will. You have a uterus, you can get a damned baby ANY time you want!

As for women getting hit harder by ANYTHING in a western country? WTF are you talking about? Most HOMELESS are MEN. The women who ARE homeless have women's shelters, women's refuges, women's services, women's this, women's that! Yeah, if you're a man, you can TAKE being homeless... if you're a man, you can TAKE prostate cancer without needing "breastcancer awareness" style events to raise money to stop you dying because ya know... boys don't cry.

I recommend Shaksville where the writers actually know what they're talking about. The article linked to is one of many. Hopefully this will stop you making a tit of yourself in the future.

HTH

Shakesville. is what I meant.

The last half of it got cut off, regarding the paygap. Here:

Taking these things into consideration, the fact that men are often forced into working much harder most of the time because they are forced to become a father. These fathers then go out and get WHATEVER JOB THEY CAN.

This includes working in the merchant navy like my grandfather, he earnt good money and my grandmother lived quite well with her children but he spent alot of time away from home to make that possible.

The reason women earn less on average is because whether you pompous asses want to admit it or not, because they like to be comfortable and flexible and have it all. They won't give up seeing the kids to work on an oil well, risk climbing through a crumbling roofspace to repair half-century old cables that have decayed to the point you can't tell positive from negative.

Some people even think this gap is due to unjust pay difference like plumbers versus day care center operators. When was the last time you heard of a woman doing septic plumbing?

As always men drag themselves through the dirt for their families and they're told they oppressing women because they get paid less sitting in a clean office, teaching in a school or working in a nursing home.

If a woman raises kid's on a government paycheck, she's a good mother. If an coerced father doesn't work hard enough to make the child support payments, he's an asshole.

Of course men aren't oppressed because of their gender.

Different groups of men may be oppressed by other men, but that's not because of their gender, unlike the systematic oppression of women.

If men are oppressed by the patriarchy (and there's plenty of evidence to support that contention), why don't they rise up and overthrow it? I'd be happy to help.

Not oppressed? Less and less women are killed every year because of DV funding targeted at them but the level of male deaths has stayed the same because no one is willing to admit women are capable of being abusers which has led to a lack of services.

Men are looked down as potential pedophiles, rapists and murders, yet it is women who most are most often responsible for the deaths of their own children.

We're demonized on the media as not only untrustworthy, murdering rapists but as disposable human beings. A thousand young men men die and it is ignored, a single young woman dies and it is a calamity that gets people tearing up across the nation.

Every time a domestic violence advert plays on the TV, you see battered women and raging men when it is men who are most often KILLED in domestic violence incidents. Not once have I seen a domestic violence ad where the violence was mututal, where the woman threw the first hit or where the woman is the aggressor.

do stop talking rubbish Bill.
Look, I can make stuff up too:

The moon is actually made of feta cheese.
It is a scandal that nobody talks about it.