So it would appear this topic is the Millwall of Mumsnet

[GothAnneGeddes]

Nobody likes us and we don't care.

I have to admit I lurk more then I post here, but to me, it's great being able to have everyday things discussed through a feminist lens, especially as most feminist websites are so US-centric.

It's just such a shame that so many women don't think that feminism is relevant to them. I just don't understand it.

nancy you are talking about Dittany aren't you.

You mean you would like her to stop posting in this section, or change her posting style.

Many of us wouldn't even have realised how important women's issues were to us without encountering Dittany. She is very important. Lot's of people don't agree with her, and that is fine. I think to suggest that she should leave or change is wrong.

Basically people on here are saying that they don't like some of the people on here, and they don't like their views. This thread would seem to indicate that some regular posters should should change their views or how they express them (pretty much impossible), or stop posting. The threat is that if some of us don't do that, we may put other women off.

OK so all the regular posters leave. Great. Then what?

I've been on MN a while, and I do think that while shouts of derailing might be irritating, I think that this topic attracts a lot of derailers. I'd never heard the term until this section opened up.

nancy, I do think it's you. In your post at Tue 17-Aug-10 09:17:37 you said you feel you have to defend your position as SAHM

I am a SAHM

Then the section will be infiltrated by patriarchal apologists

ISNT You're rather jumping to conclusions above, aren't you? I thought Nancy's posts were perfectly reasonable and didn't suggest censoring anybody. She was stating her own feelings - which is what the thread is supposed to be about, though I agree it may have been started for dubious reasons.

Why should it bother anyone else on MN that this section is here? No-one's holding a cybergun to their heads and making them come in. It's like TV channels, folks; you can switch to another if you don't like the programme on this one.

Interesting on the radical feminism front. I tend to think of myself as fairly radical not in absolute terms, but relative ones, simply because my beliefs seem fairly extreme to most people. It's still seen as quite unusual and odd not to change your name on marriage to many people, for instance. When talking about what's radical it's worth keeping that in mind.

Hoping I'm not the 'classic MN loon' SGB is referring to - but if I am, I'd just like to point out that I didn't suggest feminism should be a private topic on MN, but that those who feel their threads are being derailed might find it a good idea to set up a private board outside MN, along the lines of the SN one, where they don't have to continually fight their corner.

To me, the thing that sets MN apart from many other forums is the lack of moderation, the fact that, as the talk guidelines say, they like to 'let the conversation flow', unlike, say, netmums which specifically asks posters to stay on topic.
I like the fact that a thread may take an unanticipated direction; it has often led to some fascinating discussions, and I don't see the problem in having more than one issue on a thread - the newspaper article that gave rise to the disabled/prostitutes thread did raise more than one issue, so why not discuss them all on one thread rather than having separate threads in feminism, SN and politics? They would all end up on active convos anyway & would just get annoying...

Hey, I've got it! THis topic is the new COD!

ISNT - you are entitled to your opinion about how important someone is in your life. I don't think you can make the same judgement about their impact on others. I suspect for every fan of any poster on MN, there is a not-fan (can't think of the word)
and many more who are totally unaffected by it.

Personally, I don't think this thread should be about Dittany and whether you like/don't like her style. Mainly because this section isn't about Dittany, its about feminism

eightieschick nancy has said specifically that she didn't like what was said to her on another thread (by Dittany) and that that specifically is the reason that she doens't post here.

This is about some people not liking some other people isn't it, and this OP seems to have been seen as an invitation for people to come and have a go.

Why do people always say they have to defend their SAHM role on here? No-one has ever said there is anything wrong with being a SAHM, to my knowledge. Except Xenia maybe? Once in one thread out of all the threads on here? Why do people always say that this topic says that?

nancy is talking about dittany, and certainly she is the person who gets peoples hackles up a lot.

I tihnk that people should stop saying "oooh you're all a bit aggressive" and "you hate SAHM" which is rubbish and say what they actually mean.

Am I being aggressive now? I'm pissed off TBH.

I think the level of debate in this section is no more and no less robust than in AIBU, but rather more robust than in, say Chat. But you'd expect that.

And I think the lengthy threads and detailed exploration of issues are excellent for consciousness-raising -- there are times over the course of threads when I can feel the pennies dropping in my mind as I realise why my original response was untenable (whether I wrote it down or not).

However, I think that there's always room for improvement. My personal wish-list would currently include:

• a FAQ thread which included some stuff like "what are the main schools of thought within feminism?" etc. Something to try to reduce the number of 101 convos that need to happen, or at least change them to be "check out the link"
• fewer discussions about what a thread is supposed to be about, given the original post. So long as it's within the broad confines of feminism, I see little value coming out of these discussions. They sometimes remind me of American legal scholars arguing over the authorial intent behind the Constitution -- a bit sterile. This is different from saying that discussions about the menz are acceptable, I don't think they are, and they are easily segued into.
• a clearer distinction between the wrongness of an argument and the wrongness of a person. Ad hominem attacks add nothing. There may be mal-intent, and it should be called out for what it is, but I personally have felt that responses to me have from time to time attacked me for posing an argument, rather than showing me why my argument is flawed. AIBU has a rule at the top about that.
• a bit more on what better could look like, and a bit less on how crap things are.
• a few more light-hearted threads that make serious points, along the lines of Dittany's excellent "List every part of our bodies women must change in order to be "sexy" - being "sexy" is apparently very important for women"

I doubt others will agree with me on all/much?/any? of this, but I wanted to say what I thought was great and what I thought could be improved.

TheBossofMe, I think you should remember that the poster who made the police threat and the posse she brought with her specifically targeted Dittany.
SO whether nancy is talking about Dittany or not, Dittany is almost constantly targeted on here.

Even though I started the "derailing" thread in this section, when I come across someone (unless obviously offensive) who is actually dragging a thread off topic, I wouldn't tell them to sod off. I say something like "very interesting. But this is a thread for talking about X, so why not start a new thread if you want to talk about Y?"

Because while there is nothing wrong with changing the subject, sure we all do it sometimes, sometimes people want to continue a conversation about X, and why should they have to stop?

nancydrew - that sounds annoying. Can't remember the exact thread - unless it was you that said you had defended men etc, and some posters reacted badly? It's a shame though because I have noticed how interested posters in this section are in hearing about feminism in relation to various jobs, and law is such an important area to look at obviously. I am not sure why you are put off by the opinion of one individual poster though? You know MN, there is a huge range of opinions here and if only one person is telling you you are wrong you are doing pretty well!

I don't think we need rules slhilly, because that would put people off, me included.

But definitely a FAQ sticky bit at the top would be a good idea.

Isnt, when I say someone is being aggressive, I mean they are being aggressive.

And no you aren't. You obviously just feel strong like about a poster who others also feel strongly about. I'm just not sure that naming that poster and then asking people to enter into discussion about said poster is right.

I agree vehemently with dittany on some subjects and disagree with her just as vehemently on others. What's particularly brilliant about her is that she never, ever takes it personally which is as it should be.

This section should be about robust debate. There are different strands of feminism and that's what we're here to discuss isn't it? I think if you're going to get very upset every time someone thinks your POV is wrong then you need to toughen up a bit

Sakura - constantly????? One thread where she was threatened - were there many more?

Yes, you do need to toughen up.
If a few mums on MN scare you you've got no hope with The Patriarchy

I think maybe I need some anger management classes

I have to go out now. Also right that I'm not asking people to discuss one poster, I just knew what nancy was getting at and thought it worth bringing out into the open.

Yes she is constantly targeted, all the time.

I think Dittany has shown time and time again that she's more than capable of fighting her own corner and doesn't need anyone to do it for her.

I'm another poster who lurks but is put off posting here.

Having read this through, a couple of the recent posts have leapt out a bit.

I don't like this talk of derailing, and dragging threads off subject.

yes, it happens sometimes, by obvious trolls who are trying to disrupt the discussion.

But if, as happened on the disabled/prostitute thread, a tangential subject is being discussed, I don't think it's right to say "but that is not what this thread is about - go post elsewhere"

threads move on, and while it can be infuriating to have a thread hi-jacked (for want of a better word) - if it is done with the purpose of discussing a subject that is related, then it is valid, imo. no-one can control threads, but it does appear that this is what some posters want a lot of the time - discussion on a narrow viewpoint, with other views being dismissed as not relevant, or ignored as "derailing"

But why do you have to stop talking about X when someone else is talking about Y? - it's perfectly possible to do both.
Obviously a new thread might be better if it's a massively divergent topic or if its own thread would allow a more detailed discussion, but I don't see that digressions which spring from an article linked to in the OP should be strictly separated off - in this case I couldn't see why it shouldn't segue into a discussion about the conflict between the rights of various groups.

TheBossofMe-
yep-im wondering if theres anything that can be done to help the derailing situation.
quite often on a thread-theres loads of interesting stuff said [whether i agree or not]but theres theres loads of comments about derailing and this can come across as
basically-"fuck off-then-no you fuck off"
[ive been guilty of this myself]
and i think this can take away some of the stuff away from the thread-eg-i see something good but in the meantime its kicked off because of a derailment argument-
then i think oh ffs-then be peed off because we could of had a more interesting discussion
instead.[instead of time tooken up arguing about derailment]

personnally id be happy with"oi sparky-i think youre derailing a bit"
then i could either think"am i?yes youre right-sorry and stop"
or "no im not because i feel its relivent because........and this does lead to what youre talking about"

much better than basically"stop derailing youre on "the side"of others.