So it would appear this topic is the Millwall of Mumsnet

[GothAnneGeddes]

Nobody likes us and we don't care.

I have to admit I lurk more then I post here, but to me, it's great being able to have everyday things discussed through a feminist lens, especially as most feminist websites are so US-centric.

It's just such a shame that so many women don't think that feminism is relevant to them. I just don't understand it.

Agree with silverfrog - there seems to be a policing of the topic which happens here which I don't see so much elsewhere.

I like to stick up for Dittany now and again and I think this is one of those times. She must be mentally worn out by all the shit she gets.

Sakura, I'm guessing you're referring to my reference to the AIBU rule being at the top? That rule actually already applies here, it's just a cut-down re-post of what is said on the "Philosophy and rules" section:
"Our policy is to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow. Having said that, we will remove postings that are obscene, contain personal attacks or break the law. Please do bear in mind how difficult this parenting business can be, and if there's one thing all of us could do with, it's some moral support." [my emphasis]

So we're all already supposed to abide by this. I also personally believe that a rule about no attacks puts off less people than such attacks themselves do.

For the avoidance of doubt, the rest of my list was not a list of rules I'd like to see imposed, but things that, if they happened, I would value.

Is there someone both willing and able to put together a FAQ, I wonder? I'm firmly in the high-will low-skill camp here

This topic gets people coming on JUST to fight and disagree. It gets more trolls than usual. It gets police threats.
So it's not so much policing as trying to speak^

Nowt wrong with threads taking twists and turns. People are free to post whatever they like. If you feel it's going off at a tangent, you are free to post something about 'so, back to [original topic] I think XXXX'.

Sakura - so do many many topics on MN - politics, BF, SAHM/WOHM. Feminism got one police threat. Let's not get too paranoid here.

Tangential discussions are fine, but as I and others have said on the other thread, it's the "what is the best kind of cheese?" chats that get derailed (yeah they do) by "WHY ARE YOU ALL EATING CHEESE YOU CRAZY MONSTERS, THAT'S TYPICAL OF YOU FAT DUNGAREE CLAD FEMINISTS" type comments that get me down.

Good thinking about a 101 page. But that would mean we all have to agree...

I found myself reading this and nodding along to TheBossOfMe's posts, basically.

I lurk on this topic much more than I do in any other section of MN - I find the threads interesting and thought-provoking but I don't post because I am so put off by the domineering approach of certain posters - if you think X then you ARE a woman-hating misogynist: end of debate. I much prefer debates that acknowledge alternative points of view and are prepared to engage in them in an open-minded way. Perhaps my problem is that I don't think all men are the root of all evil, and I do think that there are things women can do to help themselves and that they are not merely victims. I do think that women have some responsibility for their choices and actions, and I think that simply shrugging the blame off onto men is not necessarily helpful. But I get tired of being accused of misogyny when I say this.

Trying to speak shouldn't mean trying to stop other women speaking.

While I agree that viewing things from a feminist perspective is entirely appropriate in the feminist section, I do think that being challenged to view something from a different perspective, even on a thread in this topic, is useful. I am thinking of the disabled man and prostitute thread, which I read after most of the shouting had been done, and I though it was very interesting, and the two perspectives were what made it so interesting. I find some posters often challenge my perspective, and I like that.

Prolesworth, I'm sure the FAQ could be made sticky if we asked MNHQ nicely and it had been done well. But I'm aware that it's a lot of work and takes some real expertise.

I will offer a few thoughts about things to go in, including some things that appear to be common issues in this section:

1. strands of feminism
2. core concepts in feminism
3. the main problems feminism is trying to confront 4A) consciousness-raising A: why does so much apparently unremarkable behaviour get challenged in these threads? aka what happens when your consciousness is raised... (recent convo w Dittany about criticising a woman for the way she dressed is a great example for me) 4B) consciousness-raising B: why it's important to have some conversations that are only about the feminist aspects of a topic, and why that is difficult. Or why feminism needs to come first in this space.

Well, seeing as someone on the another thread just now got slagged off something chonic for sending charity cards at Christmas I think we are all very sane and dull by comparison.

I find the feminism section thought provoking, I also find the philosophy section thought provoking. I don't post a lot, but I do bear in mind that my grand mother, born in the years when women were not allowed the vote and side lined out of education into servitude at 14, raped and thrown out of service age 15 and goaded into an unhappy marriage as she was percieved as "shameful" for having an illegitimate child... who could have done so much more as she was an intelligent lady, well, she is my primary reason for being concerned about feminism and also human rights in general.

I do find it sad when conversations are derailed and mindless insults thrown about by people who are so filled with hate. I think it is sad. But in the end of the day if we recognise those posters who are filled with fear and/or hate and thus driven to post what they do by these negative emotions all we can do is ignore them and continue.

I thought the Overton Window debate fascinating and a prime example of derailment tactics, which I come across a lot in my business at the management meetings...it is also known as "playing the man not the ball", i.e. it is easier to discredit a person saying the opinion than the opinion itself, and thus smear tactics and insults come out.

But again if some posters are IYO aggressive or outspoken, a lot of others aren't. Why be put off? If you think a wider debate is lacking, why wait for someone else to have it for you? Participating will broaden the debate. Refusing to post because someone once disagreed with you isn't doing much to contribute is it?

SleepingLion, I have felt a bit of what you've felt. But I've perservered with posting and found it useful. Esp. have found it helpful to ask Dittany, at whom others have pointed the finger and others have defended, to simply help me understand why she thinks I'm wrong when I'm wrong, and she's always done so straight away (thanks Dittany!). More often than not, I've ended up agreeing with her reasoning.

The reasoning is the precious jewel, IMO -- hers and everyone else's. The opinion is much less important than the thought process leading up to it. Consensus and "agreeing to disagree"/"acknowledging others' opinions in an open-minded way" is less important than knowing how others reached the conclusions they reached.

See shilly, I reckon that no-one on this board is right all the time, but some people spend a lot of time telling other that they are right and others are wrong, and persuading/berating/whatever. But they never ever change their own minds about anything. I find that arrogant.

TBOM - it's not about being right or wrong though - it's a difference in opinion. SGB and dittany come from totally different positions on the porn debate but they respect one anothers' viewpoints (I think!) because they have, as sihilly pointed out, explained their reasoning. I sort of fall between both their positions - they are quite polarised, but I accept their viewpoints.

Do you not accept that sometimes you can have a difference of opinion and respect that? That's a very reductionist way of looking at things.

TBOM, I don't think it's crucial for people to persuade each other to change their minds. I don't even think it's crucial that they respect each other's viewpoints, so long as avoid personal attacks. I think it's invaluable when people explain why they reached the conclusions they did, and what they see as the flaws in other people's reasoning.

Of course, it'd be a more pleasant-tempered place if it was all done in a spirit of delight, but given what's at stake harm to women, personal autonomy, etc tempers get frayed. And I wouldn't want diplomacy to get in the way of clarity.

LadyBiscuit - I was only talking right or wrong because a) shilly referred to being wrong and b) I get told I'm wrong here a fair bit! I have no problem with people having different POVs, but there are some posters on this topic (and others on MN) who persist in trying to tell me I'm wrong for, amongst others:

1. Being a WOHM
2. Not breastfeeding
3. Smoking/drinking/taking drugs (NB I only do the first two, but don't necessarily think that blowing a joint at the weekend is going to turn you into Scarface)
4. Employing domestic help in a developing country
5. Thinking that Half the Sky is not a feminist piece of literature, but instead is a pile of imperialist twaddle
6. Taking pole dancing lessons in a gym with a load of women in tracky bottoms
7. Thinking transexuals aren't evil and out to undermine women
8. Contemplating surrogacy

And the list goes on. You see, I try and preface statements with "I think", because that expresses an opinion. But other posters state opinion as fact, and try to tell me I'm wrong for thinking what I do. So I guess I have a problem with that in general.

Its actually one of the things which often irritates me about men, especially those I work with. The tendency to see opinion as fact and not be open to other POVs. Which is probably why after 15 years in this industry, I'm their boss - because I listen, debate, and don't see it as all about winning an argument, rather as making the right choices. Too often, winning the argument seems to be the goal.

You will note that I don't think this is exclusive to MN, to feminism or in fact to women. Just life, I guess.

Anyway, I still like this topic, mainly because for every argument/rant/preach, there is an open courteous discussion which gets you somewhere (this one falls into that camp, BTW)

Avril - hadn't seen that thread, I thought the OP here was referring to the thread in chat about what sections on MN you dislike.

Have to say I have sympathy with why the SN section might have that POV.

Avril - yes, there is a thread-about-a-thread in SN.

Sometimes, especially when people are feeling very vulnerable over something, it is important to be warned not to click on seemingly interesting threads, if there is some SN-bashing going on.

There have recently been warnings about benefit threads, and I think one about the "waht if your dd wanted to be a sahm" thread too.

you have to try to understand how reading some of the shit that gets posted in relation to SN can really tip you over the edge when you are already feeling isolated, unsupported, sometimes even hated, for just living your life and muddling through.

the thread-about threads started in SN are there to help steer people away if they are feeling low/vulnerable, not rallying cries for help, as you have said in another post today.

most people on SN don't need to call for back-up - we are well used to fighting our corner, again and again. but we do sometimmes need warning that a thread might be too much for us on a particular day.