So it would appear this topic is the Millwall of Mumsnet

[GothAnneGeddes]

Nobody likes us and we don't care.

I have to admit I lurk more then I post here, but to me, it's great being able to have everyday things discussed through a feminist lens, especially as most feminist websites are so US-centric.

It's just such a shame that so many women don't think that feminism is relevant to them. I just don't understand it.

Then you must understand that in the feminist section, some women will invariably feel that disabled males come secondary to the needs of exploited women.

In a section focusing on disabled men and men with learning difficulties, such as the SN section here, you will probably find the opposite to be true.

I have never been on the SN section because I am fighting for women, not the rights of men with SN, learning difficulties or disabilities.

Absolutely agree with Starlight thebossofme and beertrickspotter

I have an interest in feminism and have lurked (and occasionally posted) but I have been personally attacked and frankly in rational debate I don't need that.

The views expressed on here are often very one dimensional and unless you agree then you are not a "real" feminist.

So this is definitely not for me. Which is sad because if you are turning off the people who do in fact have even a latent interest in feminism then you will have no hope of garnering support/interest in those that have never considered the issue.

ANd absolutely Elephants, I consider fighting for the rights of disabled women's needs, and sexual desires, to come under this section, and I said that on the other thread.

But the needs and sexual desires of men do not.

Feminism is not about the menz.

So, nancy, starlight, beertricks - I'm not being sarcastic but how should we be behaving?

But Starlight, that's my point. I'm not emulating aggression. I'm not even slightly masculine or testosteroney in real life, nor am I online, really. I'm writing this in between cuddling and playing "dase" with my toddler daughter. Sakura is breastfeeding whilst having this debate. These are hardly masculinised activities. Honestly, if you knew how much I conform to the patriarchy, the idea that I'm masculine would seem laughable.

What I am saying is that women are taught very early on that it is unfeminine to stand up for themselves. We are socialised to couch our opinions in caveats; oh, it's only my opinion. I might be wrong, but. Well, please don't flame me for this, but, lol.

We here in this section tend to repudiate this. I've certainly seen some concerted stamping out of opinions, and I've not always agreed with the majority opinion. As i've said, sometimes I've been the minority opinion.

But here's the thing. You can complain that most people on this section disagree with you, and that's one thing. But to complain that they're just not nice enough, they're too agressive, too testoneroney, too masculine - is to continue to hobble women's expression by demanding that we play by different rules than men.

Otherwise, we're fucked, aren't we, if we can't even argue like men?

nancy, we have already said that a lot of us don't agree on topics. In fact, this thread is one of the first times Tortoise and I have actually agreed. Why doesn't it put either of us off coming here?

Perhaps you just need to jump in and pus your views a bit more.

Yes, we're fucked. Because then we'll all just bow down to Big Daddy (a fabulous phrase coined by SGB, with whom I rarely agree) and nothing will change

"In a section focusing on disabled men and men with learning difficulties, such as the SN section here, you will probably find the opposite to be true."

I think you'll find the SN section focuses on people with special needs...

Well, the point is, I don't know because my fight is in the feminist section.
That topic on the other thread was not a generalized SN topic, It was specifically about male sexual desires.

I don't feel that topic about the sexual desires has much of a place for compassion in the feminist section.

I don't feel that the topic of male sexual desire has much of a place for compassion in the feminist section

Elephants ok this is a genuine response.

I consider myself a feminist. This manifests itself in my day to day life, how I ineraact and treat others etc. I consider myself as being a supporter of womans rights.

However I do not know much (anything?) about feminism as an academic subject...perhaps I don't even know much about it as a practical subject but I AM interested in learning and also sharing my views in areas where I have a great deal of experience.

I posted, at length, on a thread about a DV trial. As a barrister who has both prosecuted and defended in such trials and been consulted on Crimanl Justice procedure I have a bit of experience in this area. I left the thread when I was accused of being a woman hating supporter of DV by virtue of my job. I was told that I wasn't a feminist and whilst I wasn't actually told to fuck off the sentiment was absolutely implicit in what was said to me.

I felt (and of course I would say this) it was a real pity that there appeared to be a blanket refusal by some to recognise what the real problems with prosecuting DV in this country and a preference to adopt a broadbrush approach and blame the "misogynist justice system", thus failing to recognise that ther are in fact practical changes that could be made as opposed to simply harping on about how bloody unfair it all is.

EAM, you are misunderstanding my point - its not about not advocating for women, its about recognising that being anti the oppression of women doesn't give you a right to to be pro the oppression of others. With regards to the disabled prostitution thread, the underlying tone was that because someone was disabled, we have a right to decide how they spend their money (alongside fair point about prostitution being hideous). Some posters seemed absolutely unable to see the oppression in their statement.

Personally, I would like to think that its possible to rank the needs of all human beings equally.

Starlight, I don't think my opinion is rubbish or daft. I read that thread and saw two different groups of posters having two different conversations, one focusing on the disability aspect and one on the prostitution aspect. From my perspective neither side was more or less 'blinkered' than the other and I felt your accusation was hypocritical.

nancy,
you see again, I don't see this section as "harping on about how bloody unfair it is"

Not at all.

I see it as attempting to crystallize views. None of us here have views set in stone and we are all thirsty for more info.

Mentioning no names, some posters have come on here and said things like "WahWahWah, I'm such a victim" that's not what feminism is about etc.

Lots of people on this section are feminist activists IRL

And again, if we can't harp on about how bloody unfair it is here, then where can we?

I meant to expand on my point about a willingness to learn.

My experience is that unfortunately a lack of knowledge is seen as a weakness and is often used in a "you don't know as much as me therefore you don't know anything" way or as simply an opportunity to be preached to.

Neither of which I am looking for.

I mean posters have actually used that phrase "WahWahWahI'm such a victim" to mock us when we were outraged at something.

I also think that its weak to say that we dislike argument from women per se. I work at the heights of a very male dominated industry, I argue with the best of them, I have no problem with women debating, arguing etc.

I do have a problem with people who don't engage in debate, but just rant and shout. Lots of that goes on here.

nancy, I have learned so much since joining here and I have never ever been looked down on by the regulars.
Only ever by the newcomers who sign up .
Again, naming no names, one relative newcomer, not one of the regular MNers told me "Look your point can't be valid because you've admitted you're new to feminism" by way of trying to shut me up.
So are you sure you haven't been collared by some of these newbies that sign up special just to derail the thread?

Nah I like it. It's robust. You do need to know your onions, otherwise I imagine it could be confusing.

Language plays a large part in meaning, so subtleties are not overlooked.

As someone who hangs out in S&B and here a bit it's good to process how that can work.

FFS I am amazed by some of the whining on this thread, particularly when it's from veteran (or veteran-ish) MNers. Have you never noticed how apocalyptic and nasty debates can get in other topics? WOHM vs SAHM, breast v bottle, children at weddings... these get full of people insulting each other's choices, calling them selfish bitches and bad parents, and yet some of you seem to think that being told you're Not A Proper Feminist is somehow far worse.
Feminists don't all agree with each other all the time. I disagree a lot, and regularly, with several of the other posters in this topic but I don't think they should be told to shut up and go away, any more than I would take it lightly if they told me to shut up and go away. Yet you've got people suggesting that this whole topic should either be shut down or only accessible to people who've made a special application to join it. What do you think your 'hide topic' button is for?

sakura harping is fine but to the detriment of reasoned practical progress? I would disagree.

I do think it a great pity that woman are so turned off by this section and I am fairly certain that many of the reasonable views expressed here are simply drowned out by the more militant one brand of feminism that is shouted on here.

As I said I bowed out of this topic after the DV run in but I have often wondered if people were unaware how inaccessible feminism appears on reading some of the threads. Then this morning, lo! this thread so I couldn't help but comment but I do know this is not the place for me

And yet again, I agree with SGB. But that can't possibly be true, since apparently all of us follow the same party line or get kicked out.