So it would appear this topic is the Millwall of Mumsnet

[GothAnneGeddes]

Nobody likes us and we don't care.

I have to admit I lurk more then I post here, but to me, it's great being able to have everyday things discussed through a feminist lens, especially as most feminist websites are so US-centric.

It's just such a shame that so many women don't think that feminism is relevant to them. I just don't understand it.

I must say I have been reading some of the threads in this section. I find the tone of most of them to be a mixture bleating and downright aggression.
It is my opinion that many of the "feminists" here give women a bad name and actually pander to the caricatured image of the butch aggressive man hating woman. For all I know there might be a few boiler suits and CND earings knocking about too.

yes, I see theBossofMe,
It's just that I didn't even realise it myself before coming on here but the reason the women's movement is taking so long to plateu is because women do rather tend to put the needs of everyone else above the needs of the women's movement.
Perhaps that's in the nature of women, who knows?

SO if a woman comes along and says "hang on, I put the needs of women above ALL OTHER NEEDS" it looks rather unnatural and extreme.

But if a woman can't do that here in the feminist section, then where can she do it?

Anywhere else but here, the extreme feminst views would be ridiculed and mocked.
Here, they are sometimes taken seriously and despised.

Other times they're wrong.

And what nonsense to imply the "extreme" feminists agree on all topics

Honestly, and don't throw things at me, but I think this whole "feminist orthodoxy/narrow minded" thing is subject to feminist analysis in and of itself.

E.g.: I disagree with Sakura on a regular basis, and with Dittany on a slightly less regular basis, and I've never felt shouted down or censored. I'm not a radical feminist, but I am an active feminist who engages in this section very regularly.

I think women are socialised to back away from robust debate - I think it's yet another area in which standing up for an unpopular viewpoint is considered unfeminine and therefore trained out of us. Certainly my male best friend and I have much more fun debates then any of my close female friends* and I think it's because, when faced with open disagreement, even very intelligent, independent women tend to concede, or at least try and appease ("let's agree to disagree"). It's social conditioning.

So a feminism section tends to attract women who refuse to play by those rules. One of the reasons that so many of us are annoyed with the WhatAboutTheMenz/101 crap is that it's not just about educating and it's not just about tone, it plays into the narrative that encapsulates the problem. You are a woman therefore it's your role to be an emotional caretaker, to care about the tone, to manage the interaction, to take responsibility for the anger of others.

Given all of the above, I think that part of the issue here is that feminists want to engage in the sort of rigorous debate that you get when you stop worrying about being nice, and feminine. And it's often misinterpreted as hardline, or aggressive, or imposing our views on others (how many times have we read that the women on this section lambast poor unsuspecting readers for wanting nice underwear? has that ever actually happened). And I think it's because women expect other women to play by the patriarchal rules - which in this context means saying "just my opinion, lol" a lot.

I think that if women didn't experience this section as hardline, as shouting them down, as aggressive? We'd actually be doing it wrong.

kitty, have you ever been on some all-male forums? The rampant misogyny you find there will shock you.

Do you think they've got some guy going, "Hang on guys, aren't we playing into the idea that we're all butch and aggressive?"

Err, nope. NObody even notices, because it's so normalized.

Ha, c-post with Sakura at 8:02 who said the same thing more succinctly (my excuse is typing one handed due to toddler)

Well, tortoise, I think the planets have aligned today.

I think we agree

NO excuses, I'm breastfeeding as we speak

pfffft that's so typical of your butch masculine persona, Sakura.

hahahaha

I do like your idea that this is a topic of analysis in itself. Is it a subconcious divide and rule thing

Interesting. It's true that I haven't seen any threads to suggest this is the Millwall of Mumsnet.
Has this thread been started by a new poster?
Is it a divide and rule tactic?
Are we being infiltrated?

Everyone has different ideas in this here section so the claim that there isn't free speech is bollocks. The most aggressive people on this topic are the people attacking feminism and saying we're all man-hating butch lesbians - the feminists on here aren't making offensive generalisations and insults towards anyone who didn't start it.

Put your binoculars and mirrored sunglasses away, Sakura .

In fact, I remember reading a blog recently ALL ABOUT how women don't think feminist was relevant to them before proceeding to make lots of divisory, anti-feminist opinions that claimed to be feminist opinions, such as
Feminists have always excluded people like ethnic minorities and various classes, which made me think it was a very ethno-centric blogger, because they could not comprehend that you didn't have to be white and middle class to be a feminist.
And that radical feminists such as Andrea Dworkin and Kate Millet (founder of the second wave feminism) and Betty Friedan have ALWAYS addressed class and race issues as part of feminism.

But this blogger was saying something similar to the OP of this thread.

Starlight, I'm not being funny but EVERYONE feels like you when they first join MN. IT takes some getting used to.
And then you start to realise it's the best thing about MN.
That's why MN is so huge.

If a regular poster here goes into a thread in another section and expresses a feminist viewpoint, and loads of people pile in to disagree with her, is that "stifling debate" too? And silencing? Or is it only called that when women standing up for other women do it? I would just say it was disagreement. I get the idea that some women post in this section and are just dumbfounded when everyone doesn't immediately down tools and give them a round of applause.

I find the idea that to be good women/good feminists we should all get on and not disagree just as pernicious as some more overtly arsey ideas. "But I'm a woman and I said X, how can you disagree with X and call yourself a feminist?" Nooo, as well as being women we are both individuals and don't all have to coo along together like happy pigeons because you say so.

Also WRT the 'you treat feminism as more important' thing (haven't c&p specially ) - I really like this quote:

""But what about gay people or people of color or the disabled or the poor or??" they ask, as if there is something intrinsic to feminism that precludes also fighting other biases. The truth is, if one is genuinely concerned with the betterment of women, one is necessarily concerned with fighting biases against any marginalized group, because, half (give or take) of all such groups are women."

There are many posters in this section who honestly expect us to hold back advocating for women on an issue, until every single man is safely away from that issue. E.g. you can't talk about women being paid 25% less than men, because some man somewhere is being paid badly too. And somehow women are supposed to come second - when an issue doesn't affect men at all, only then you can start trying to help women with it. Why is this?

Re-reading it sounds as if I am referring to posters on this thread, but I'm really not, just some attitudes that I see on this part of MN.