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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So it would appear this topic is the Millwall of Mumsnet

395 replies

GothAnneGeddes · 16/08/2010 23:53

Nobody likes us and we don't care.

I have to admit I lurk more then I post here, but to me, it's great being able to have everyday things discussed through a feminist lens, especially as most feminist websites are so US-centric.

It's just such a shame that so many women don't think that feminism is relevant to them. I just don't understand it.

OP posts:
sparky159 · 19/08/2010 10:31

SwallowedAFly
no-you didnt use the phrase anti-woman-
sorry-i was thinking aloud as i was writing.
and reflecting on what everyone else has also been saying and my own thoughts.

[the difficulty is that we re talking...........]

ah-got you.
yes-im understanding this a bit more now-
thankyou.

sparky159 · 19/08/2010 10:42

[reflecting on what everyone else has been saying........]
im not meaning that everyone else is saying anti-woman.

TheBossofMe · 19/08/2010 13:56

dittany, I was one of the "innocent until proven guilty" posters you refer to, so I'll just explain what I meant by that, and apologise if you thought I was word-twisting - not my intention. What I meant is:

A man accused of rape, wife beating etc who is pleading not guilty, is assumed by our legal system to be not guilty until he is convicted.

Unless he has confessed to the crime to you, as the defence lawyer,, or unless he has a previous conviction for such offenses, I would say you cannot call him a rapist, wife beater etc until said conviction has happened - he's a man accused of rape, wife beating etc

Thus, as a lawyer, you would have no way of knowing if such men are in fact rapists, wife beaters etc until the trial is concluded. So how can you tell if you are depending a rapist, or an innocent man (and, BTW IMO, you are more likely to be defending the former rather than the latter in court)?

Of course, once you've taken the case, I presume you can't ditch once your client is found guilty. Personally, that would be why I as a woman would have a problem with working as a defence barrister, but I also shudder at the thought that courts become boys clubs, which I suspect they would if the only route for women was as a prosecutor. I also shudder at the thought that I would be grilled by a male defence barrister. So no easy answer for me, just a case of, I couldn't do it myself.

semicolon · 19/08/2010 14:07

So basically you are saying that a woman's place is outside the law courts because she might be called to defend a rapist, paedophile, or wife beater?

She should just get a placard and stand outside? Or just be the 'good guy' on the prosecution side?

That the business of criminal and civil justice should be left to men? Because let's face it many a fraud trial is about money laundering from prostitution, women trafficking etc.

You think women shouldn't do that either?

Or family courts?

Or social work

Or journalism?

Because every job in public life has elements which might make you feel uncomfortable. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do them and try to improve things rather than sit on the sidelines polishing your feminist credentials.

dittany · 19/08/2010 18:08

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dittany · 19/08/2010 18:10

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semicolon · 19/08/2010 18:16

I didn't mean just you Dittany Grin

And I see your point. It is a good one.

tabouleh · 19/08/2010 18:32

dittany - you're right I have certainly not been "thinking outside the box" wrt to solutions for various issues relating to women.

"This is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about radical feminism. Most people here do not seem to be able to think outside the box and think that there could be any other system than the one we currently have now, one which fails women at every turn"

I am so starting to see where you are coming from!

Others may find this speech by Andrea Dworkin
(the loooong post on this thread) very helpful. I am now starting to think of many many feminist issues in terms of "deep silence".

swallowedAfly · 19/08/2010 18:47

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semicolon · 19/08/2010 20:58

It was a general 'you,' not aimed at anyone in particular.

I absolutely agree that women are shortchanged by our legal and penal system. From being told that answering the door in a dressing gown was asking to be raped to the disproportionate numbers of women imprisoned for debt.

But I think the principle of innocent until proven guilty is the cornerstone if our democracy.

I guess I am a liberal and believe in change from within.

pinemartina · 19/08/2010 21:48

I have never posted on this topic,am usually in Relationships and Lone Parents,but I lurk here a lot.
This thread is fascinating and I have huge respect and admiration for so many of the regular posters.

I just felt I had to chip in at this point,since reading tortoise at 08.05 on 17/08 and dittany 18.08 and 18.10 gave me comfort and inspiration in equal measure and ,for me,totally summed up the broader point of this debate.

I would love to expand on this,but I am too shagged out by caring for my new baby and dc to string coherent sentences together.

FWIW , I am grateful that this forum exists,and go with the view that it all has to be said/shouted to shift forward debate ,reshape/reform the infrastructure and dismantle the established institutions.

And I'm happy to learn/expand/explore via direct challenge /personal attack.

slhilly · 20/08/2010 06:20

dittany, swallowedAfly, other radical feminists: I'd be really interested to find out if you believe that the problem with the justice system is that it doesn't live up to the ideals it nominally has, or if you think the ideals themselves are wrong? ie, when you imagine a new and better justice system, do you imagine that principles such as "innocent until proven guilty" are part of what may change? I'm trying to think about what might come after women have refused to participate in the system as it currently stands (or at least that large part of the system where women are failed, eg DV, rape etc)

I think I may be a radical feminist on this topic, so I'm excited by thinking about what better could look like. If anyone can point me to some links etc on this, I'd also be super-grateful

swallowedAfly · 20/08/2010 09:35

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swallowedAfly · 20/08/2010 09:42

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swallowedAfly · 20/08/2010 09:57

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swallowedAfly · 20/08/2010 13:01

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semicolon · 20/08/2010 13:06

It's usually me that does that Grin

pinemartina · 20/08/2010 14:58

*sAf Agree,agree,agree

smallwhitecat · 20/08/2010 15:06

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swallowedAfly · 20/08/2010 15:18

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