why do women collude in their own oppression?

[ColdComfortFarm]

Following the notorious Sebastian Horley thread, I feel utter despair at the way women defend their oppressors. Black people would never attend the funeral of someone who advocated cutting up black people with chainsaws, enslaving and raping them, so why do women? I'm not a fool, I know that society protects misogynists in a way it does not protect racists, but even so, why do women support women-haters in a way that Jews or black people (for example) do not? And how can we change this?

Yes that's very true EAP.

Girls stuff is crap (ie girls are crap), is the message we are indoctrinated with from the year dot.

What can we do about the oppressor/abuser. They come up with all sorts of excuses, perhaps the ones they tried to justify their behavious to themselves?

"but we talked", "but I gave her money", "but married people have sex" "but I like it" etc.

I think we have to challenge their wrong views, show them that they have no support in society, and support those they try to attack.

I think the trolls personal attacks that single out dittany is a little compliment really, he must really feel threatened by her. It's funny that the prostitute talked to the man that was paying her for sex, it was possibly a mild attempt at trying to make herself feel human and remotely equal in a situation she knew she was being exploited.

I find this idea that teh vast majority of men (and apparently many women as well ) use prostitutes without a second thought, quite baffling.

Most men don't use prostitutes. It is not a normal or civilised thing to do. Anyone who claims that most men are comfortable with this sort of behaviour has a low opinion of men TBH, and probably an agenda.

i must repeat i am not in any way singling out dittany, she is very outspoken which is good, so am i.
I am not threatened by her at all, and i know she isnt by me and i wouldnt want her to be.

I agree using prostitutes is not a 'normal' thing. Most (probably all) men I know find it distasteful and would see that as an insult.

''I've always preferred male friends'

I don't agree; i;ve always preferred male friends because women don't like me, women don't like me becuase I am no good at the female boding rituals that seem so popular in those I know- the beauty and OK magazines- and don't want to be part of their second rate partner cleaning whilst DH has fun gang.

There. it's not that I don;t want to be part of a women's gang- theya ctively do not want me, becuase I am not like them.

And yes them is a very narrow small bunch of women with a very narrow ideologocal field and life experience becuase that's very much the case where I grew up, but I prefer men becuase on the whole they let me go up ladders and don't send me to coventry becuase I seem odd.

It doesn't affect how I see the feminist movement though: I clearly see that as a group male patriarchy is oppreseeive (and yes totally agree with teh group thing; some of the best examples of equality come from men wbut it's about evolved perceived group power and norms isn't it?). And in fact, the women I know wouldn;thaqve interest in feminism at all, maybe dimissing it as what lesbians do (a crap argument that upsets me as much as anything but thern I have found being generally interested in equality- regardless of gender, sexuality, race, faith or disability- is another thing people dislike me for.. I challenge the things they are too lazy to want challenged* or too comfortable to think about)

So why am I not an active femonist? Because I dont fit in of course; and because fighting the battles got so tiring that I could only hold onto some I have no option but face.

And it irks nme when people see me as a man hater if I refer to feminism; I am a happily married mother of 4 boys who loves that fact. But I can want to challenge how society is without liking the men in my life any less.

*I fully admit I am referring to a specific group of women that are part of my regular contacts via family and extended networks. There are any other women I adore but without tearing down my whole life (and that of DH who is lifelong friends with the husbands) I can't really change that at this very moment.

sounds like a courtroom dittany with you as judge and jury....sorry but i don't see the parralel at all in the gay bashing comment.
I will not leave the site, like you i have a right to speech, but i do agree with you that my initail intention was to comment on my friend Sebastian Horsley which was very good thread i might add.
So, i will leave this particular thread and allow you to continue giving forth your, in my opinion, one dimensional view on things dittany, but as i said before..it is your right to speak..like all of us.
enjoy your moment of fame..!

SR....You seriously don't see the comparison? You used a woman, exploited her which means that behaviour was misogynist, women hating....

I have to admit that it is strange how SR says he will not leave the site.

I would hazard a guess that all this singling out of Dittany plus his exploitation of women might just mean that MNHQ have a say in whether he stays.

I think the entire sex industry is mysogynist but I do wonder (and have no direct experience either myself ior in those I am close to that I am aware of) if soemtimes men who nuse a prostitute aren't being overtly mysogynist but simply driven by being wrapped up so much in themselves that they trulyc an't see beyond the functionality.

Which is sutely then about talking to people, educating them and getting them to think, rather than instantly blaming them?

I in no way mean Horsley mind; for all I am reluctant to speak ill on a thread where his friend is present the man does sound incredibly depraved.

Sancti - Mr SR was provided with loads and loads of information on prostitution to no avail. He is not interested in education.

Oh absolutely I know that

I was speaking far more generally; about nineteen year olds who are struggling to get a girlfriend so think it's an OK alternative, widowed men whoa re lonely.... that sort of end of the market.

I am sure he is bridling furiously at the thought of doing anything a mere woman asks him to. Indeed the desire to do exactly what he wants, regardless of the wishes or desires of others, no matter how offensive and intrusive they might find it, entirely for his own gratification, is precisely why he uses prostitutes. God, it is a terrible life being a prostitute. Not only do you have to spend your entire working life with men who at best have a huge sense of entitlement and no social skills, but you have to pretend to like it. Here, of course, we don't have to pretend anything of the sort.

You do relaise he has kinda won and that you have gone on to discussing him rather than the very important topic of the OP?

Am fully expecting to be slapped off thread for that but why let it happen? I understand the anger (the experience I do have of the sex industry is from a close friend whose DH got himself tangled up with horrific results) but surely a focus on wider issues will eventually yield better rsults?

Plus, there will always be dissenters- thats humanity- and they cannot be allwoed to derail the aims.

sancti I would agree with you there.

I think that for a lot of men who do this sort of thing they don't give any consideration to the woman at all - it's not an act of hate, it's an act of them doing what they want and the other person is simply irrelevant.

I'm not sure which is worse, actively hating women, or not seeing them as real people at all.

Actually, it's inspiring to see a group of women NOT go all simpery and deferential around a man, and not allow a man to frighten women into adopting subservient behaviour by calling one of the women unfeminine/unattractive etc. It's a trick that all too often works. It's part of the collusion. Fascinating really.

I think some very deluded men with a very narrow life experience honestly believe a women who accepts money does so as a result of a fully enabled life choice. I suspect the realities of it are so far from many men's frame of reference (as is feminism, and that's not entirely their own fault- the very rural men I know simply have no contact with anything exscept a very limited social group and frame of reference- born, grow up, keep seeing same group of people that lived on your strreet, marry one of them, move to next street, die)

True CCF, though I wonder if simply stating a set of beleifs wothen ignoring would work better.

But it does seem to me that if a thread is derailed then topics can be largely forgotten.

And now I must run; sorry. Not trying to be awkward and vanish I promise! Baby to feed and settle. The one thing DH can't do LOL (am BF)- he did do the other 3 so can't complain!

Back to the discussion, do you think a woman finds her femininity more of a valuable asset than her feminist thinking?