why do women collude in their own oppression?

[ColdComfortFarm]

Following the notorious Sebastian Horley thread, I feel utter despair at the way women defend their oppressors. Black people would never attend the funeral of someone who advocated cutting up black people with chainsaws, enslaving and raping them, so why do women? I'm not a fool, I know that society protects misogynists in a way it does not protect racists, but even so, why do women support women-haters in a way that Jews or black people (for example) do not? And how can we change this?

I think in the long term the attraction thing is quite funny; I had a fair few boyfriends but the things I remember are when people clearly indicated their diapproval- I am of that build that even when a size 12 I have wide curvy hips and I do recall my friensd trying to set me up with some bloke I had no interest in at all and catchiong him out of the side of my eye shaking his head and indicating that I was far too wide and being hurt.

But then whilst I was slim when I met DH he has been happier as I have gained a bit (heck 4 kids, it's unsurprising LOL). When I see him looking at a woman in town or whatever (and it doesn't bother me, i tell him if I think someone is attractive too- we trust each other) she's always more my size and he clearly goes for quirky, bigger and opinionated over anything else- ta-da coz here I am anyway LOL.

But whilst the right bloke or woman is going to like us the way we actually are, there's an awful lots of idiots meant for somenoe completely different who seem to think you ahve a duty to emasure up to their wants to navigate first!

I an't wear a wedding ring though (allergic to jewellery except the elather watch DH took years to find for me) and I have notived on the rare occasions I go out men look at my finger before me; on one notable sickening occasion a chuckle brother lookalike went through every ring finger of every woman in the pub- I mean, what woman could find that method of selection sexy? You'd have to have zero self worth!

And you know I like to get dressed up: we go to an awards do once a year and I can spend months planning an outfit but if I am not able to get dressed up i don't feel bad any more either. Lots of things in my life that eman my appearance come second (and I trained as a make up artist once so I do get it and all) and I am OK with that as they are my chosen priorities. And in fact the boys broke my only mirror near a plug a few weeks ago and I can't afford another one for a few weekks and I thougt i;d be lost without the straighteners but in fact no I am not. It'd be ahrder if I had an employer to impress every day 9am a carer) but have surprised myself how doable it really is.

When I was single I used to go through the whole rigmarole and TBH now I don't, there is not an appreciable difference.

Sure I look a bit different done up - my hair looks a bit smoother when I blow dry it - but when I don't it's wavy and looks fine. With some makeup on I look like me with a bit of makeup on. With heels I look like me but a bit taller and more tottery... And so on.

None of these things actually changes what I look like, and I look perfectly presentable without them. So why spend the hours and hours doing it? Now I do it when i feel like it, or for an occasion, I don't feel like I have to, which is great. Mind you even when I "did" grooming I was never very obsessive or regular about it so it's been quite easy to drop the whole lot. Laziness has won through

I work on the theory that if I rarely bother then I always have the potential to wow with very little effort

ANd I refuse heels now; wedges at a push but if it hurts then it's a no. I went to my aunt's wedding in great tottery things and after an hour gave in and swapped to my standard old clarks mary janes and my sisters went ha ha and then - nothng. Nobody died or passed out. Was so not worth the pain.

Hahah yes that was what I used to think

Like, if you get all done up for work every day and dress like you're going to a disco with false eyelashes and everything, what the hell do you have to do to actually look "done up"? Whereas for me, a spot of eyeshadow and a brush of mascara and everyone is "ooooh you look nice"

Not entiely Dittany

I think for most people tehres value in self care and maiing the effort or feeling as if you have.

But I think the silly extremes- surgery, painful clothes, makeup that tries to sell us the idea that we could look prepubescant even at 45- absolutely is that.

I remember after having ds1 (eclampsia) the first thing I did was apply basic make up and that was not about anyone else, but ebing able to face consultants, male and female, with far more confidence if I felt I had applied a bit of war paint- a completely different cultural thing to being attractive. But when I see things like the Lelli Kelli shoes advert this morning for small girls with a free make up case- !! Makes me so angry and so glad I have boys.

damn lost my post

not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, just got sidetracked! it's hard to escape a lifetimes conditioning, a chat about makeup was bound to happen in teh feminist section sooner or later!

going out now will get back to the topic under discussion then

I used to agree with that whole-heartedly Dittany. When I felt more threatened by the attention. But now feel I can wear heels eg in 'safe' environments, eg at work or with friends. I like feeling tall (I like walking into interviews being nearly/as tall as the male for example).

But I could not totter down the street in heels and short skirt, and do not wear nail polish, earrings, fake tan or lots of make up - but I don't feel attracted to that look anyway.

But I do prefer to be slim and wear attractive clothes. Not sure if this mildness is colluding...

That's why I asked really....Is feminism in total opposition to femininity? and what is femininity?

I have highlighted hair, not too much low cut, quite a lot of fitted stuff(makes me look slimmer) and I like to look my best. It's women that I like to notice how I look, since having dcs I couldn't care less how strange men find me! (Although they do seem to notice)

Yes I agree. I used to fight against the maleness of my environment. Now I don't. But I do try to be in control of it if I can, temper what I look like in alignment with how I wish to be perceived.

I do know I feel more at ease these days. But I am protected a lot from most crass awfulness.

TBH it wasnt about them- it was bout not looking like a vivim or ill after 9 months of hyperemesis and pre / actual,eclampsia

Its not something I did with the other babies either

Am a bit controlly as well so think it was about that; tbh I wear my makeup so natural that most people cannot see it- and I dont reapply later either, is about comfort of a routine eprhaps? I dont feel worrse if I dont wear it either, and am no more likely to apply on days I will see anyone

I would describe my make up and indeed a lot of my appearnace not as designed to attract but more as a mask: a protective layer. I wore it when the boys asd was diagnosed, and I do for lea meetings.

ANd thats to do with a hidstory of being bullied etc I think and a determination not to let that happen again

DH, when he a
has the chance and the £, is far vainer than me I think.I think that may be becuase he is a mature student with a large number of oyunger ones though and they used to call him dad LOL

I was a receptionist for a while; absolutely in a male dominat environment (haulage)- had I not worjn make up am sure i;d have been sacked and frankly that would have helped nobody!

Not sure I bothered later in my career though when I worked in family support. Hmmm.

FWIW though ds4 is at this moment aprading around in my prettiest necklace (made for me by my lovely ds1) so am not convinced it is just about male-female patterns and not some innate thing- ds4 is only 2 so very young. And ds3 has ASD and is 7 and has completely failed to pick up societal norms about geneder and pink etc, and natiurally tends towards the very pink / femnine rather than a male base level.

I don;t usually wear DMs (do have great walking boots though for winter) but when I put on my supposed ream wedding dress I had a huge urge to team it with DMs and stomp everywhere and ended up rejecting it as a result- just was far too girly and I had all these dieas of being wrapped up as a gift and handed over going through my mind; in fact we'd paid for wedding and it had zero to do with aprents at all, ended upw earing a nice long dress and matching coat in grey shot satin.

Strange really: DH ahd absolutely no conept of wanitng a subservient woman or anything (indeed he found dating that sort of women hard and it never worked- he likes mouthy ones LOL ) so wasn't about him at all, i;d wanted the dress to stick two fingers up to everyone who said I woudl enver get amrried becuase I wasn't X, Y or Z: couldn't do it in the end though.

LOL, I actually think a poncey wedding dress teamed with a massive pair of Docs sounds extremely hip and stylish.

If I ever get married, I'll bear it in mind.

(Wonders whether to ask MN to set up a feminist style section )

You know what, i bloody wish I had done that now!

Although i'd have wrecked it by the time of the wedding; people coming to help me seemed to think they were my guests and I was up at 6am cleaning floors and getting thier brekkie whilst they ahd a lie in - and it was my first night without a baby to care for in 3 months as well, after a birth that'd almost killed us both.

TBH I think finding a dress at all was something of a miracle!

Yes makeup etc does definitely absolutely bear discussion as a feminist issue.

However I personally think that you can be a part of that discussion while still adhering to societal norms as to what women "ought" to look like, to a greater or lesser extent. And I know that no-one on here disagrees with that - it's people with stereotypical ideas of what being a feminist means, that think it means stopping shaving your legs etc. No-one would say that an individual woman wearing some makeup negates her views on issues that affect women - I mean we are all a part of this society, and the pressure to conform is very strong and very ingrained, to completely turn your back on the whole lot is a very difficult thing to do.

Do they beer? Yeuch!

I do think that appearance is one area where absolutely women collude with oppression more than any other - it's terribly insidious. I mean, I do it, without even thinking twice. Commenting on the appearance of other women who do not meet my beuaty standard, which is set by my background. Forming an alleigance with women who share the same idea of what constitutes the "correct" form of female beauty and talking about the ones who don't. (False eyelashes in teh office). Of course the whole DMs and casual clothes and no makeup thing is also a different beauty standard - because the women who do that and look great really are beautiful. And of course I notice whether people look great or not....

Maybe this is why people get so upset about the makeup for kids etc - traditionally you could forget about all of that stuff, and people didn't expect you to do anything, when you were a child or after menopause. Just women in their reproductive years had to look luscious. Now it seems to be all females, all of the time, for their whole lives...