why do women collude in their own oppression?

[ColdComfortFarm]

Following the notorious Sebastian Horley thread, I feel utter despair at the way women defend their oppressors. Black people would never attend the funeral of someone who advocated cutting up black people with chainsaws, enslaving and raping them, so why do women? I'm not a fool, I know that society protects misogynists in a way it does not protect racists, but even so, why do women support women-haters in a way that Jews or black people (for example) do not? And how can we change this?

Yes, I think the media forces women to put pressure on themselves. SOme women go for breast implants despite their partners' protestations (although other women get bought breast implants for birthdays, and sometimes for uni graduation )

But I think the media has an incredible impact on women's psyche.
Drop-dead gorgeous women are not necessarily more comfortable in their skins than any other women, because none of it is actually about beauty, it's about contorl
[been reading the Beauty Myth]

'One person has said that she had a job where she thinks she would have been sacked if she didn't wear makeup and I think we have to take her word for that.

that was me

context was agency work (so disposable) for a tin pot haulage company where only women were either very young (I was early twenties) and front of house, or elderly and doing admin roles. All management m,en (except H&S manager, who was often left out of meetings and amde to make coffee instead- she ran at first opportunity) and vast majority of people passing by were lorry drivers, transport reps and similiar.

Nbot to say all men were sexist; is where I met my DH. But they were hugely stuck in their rut and if they ahd been allowed to make up a factual job description for reception it would have said 'pretty, push up bra and mini skirt. Can asnwer a phone and put things in envelopes, assistance available with the latter'.

Can I now just to protect my blushes point out I have since acquired a degree and gone on to an MA LOL? (I can take negative comments on my appearance but get hugely upset about them if based on my IQ)

And yes I agree it can be very ahrd to be beautiful (not that i'd know- I used to be able to paint it on but that was it) and truth be told society will always find something to use to make you feel not good enough.

Wasn't that long ago that job descriptions like that were quite open.

Stupid thing is that now it's all equal opps, somehow a disproportionate number of young pretty blonde females still end up in PA roles (in my old industry). A certain type of male manager still wants a pretty young thing "looking after him" as a perk of the job.

Probably very true; my last industry was the charity sector which i think was very not like that but yes have seen a little of the PR thing and its all dressed up as 'media prentation' isn't it?

I worked in trade publishing and sales, I was a minority being a woman. I had to be very cut throat and male to get through the day. The osmosis of shit brash attitude was relatively quick and soon the shock tactics I had used to survive the first few months became second nature. My attitudes changed a lot and it took becoming a mother to get back in track. There was no explicit recommendation to wear make up or feminine clothes but, even though I also wore a suit with trousers, I felt very empowered and used my feminine charms to get what I wanted. I never gave a thing up, never got personal but could stand my ground better than them all. Was I an arse to use my appearance to get what I wanted? I was good at my job so perhaps it was my own perception. I certainly think in that environment I would not have been so well recognised and respected (in a very loose way) if I had not be slim, attractive and well made up....(never tarty or flesh on show btw). Am I making any sense?

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with dressing up, adorning oneself and trying to look the best you can but it should be fun. It should be a way to express ourselves creatively.

The problem lies in the standard of beauty which women are supposed to strive for, which is ultimately unobtainable, and the pressure we're under to look a certain way at all times.

Fat, wrinkles, cellulite, stretch marks and body hair are all natural and normal and womanly but we are not supposed to have any of them. I feel like I'm being constantly bombarded with YOU'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH messages. We're so used to seeing naked "perfect" bodies we forget that they're not normal! I look at myself in the mirror and am shocked and horrified that what I see isn't the same as all the other naked bodies I've seen today. I tell myself to calm down and think rationally. I conclude that my body is fine. Then I open a magazine and read an article about fat knees or somesuch nonsense and start worrying again.

All this advertising and media crap is designed to make us feel bad and guilty so we waste more money and time trying to "improve".

Fat, wrinkles, cellulite, stretch marks and body hair are all natural and normal.

Tooth decay is a natural process too, but we all go to the dentist.

But fat, wrinkles, cellulite, stretch marks and body hair are not a sign of unhealthiness.

(Fat of course in moderation but then too much of anything tends to be a bad thing)

This argument is so 1990s

Women need to compete with each other because we need to reproduce. Until feminism accounts for this, it will never be successful.

No, women do not need to compete.
Men need to compete, it is men who are hierarchical, and who compete because of their high fertility as opposed to women's low fertility. WOmen do not need to compete in the same way, and in fact, do not.
But patriarchy has created a situation where women feel they need to compete, such as the class system and the beauty standard. In Victorian times it used to be the Maiden/Whore

Women may not need to compete with eachother..but they bloody well do!............

Infection from tooth decay and gum disease can lead to heart attacks, preterm births and other bad stuff.

Body hair can lead to mental health problems because society makes hairy women feel like freaks.

Kind of different.

slouchingtowardswaitrose ...well i sort of agree ..but a woman with hairy legs and face....!

Thank you for making my point.

I think some women feel they need to compete with other women in terms of looks etc, to get what they see as the more alpha males in society.

About competing to be honest both genders do it and it's not a thing promoted by patriarchy it's a thing promoted by 'survival'. I say this because virtually everything on the planet feels a need to compete, and despite our intelligence the human race is still governed by the same rules.

There will always be competition, as long as there is something better. Women compete with women, men compete with other men and we all compete with each and everything else.

And because of this people can never truly work together in massive groups, it takes a monumentous event to band large numbers of people to a cause whether that be war, a great (and obvious) injustice or some disaster etc otherwise peoples differences will keep them apart.

This is the answer to the OPs question because at least in the UK there is no obvious great injustice against women, women can still get ahead in life and so there is nothing to band all women together because being the same gender alone is not enough.

Sakura - how can you say that women do not compete? I agree with sammy also that this is not something promoted by patriarchy.

I am interested in why you think women need to be 'beautiful' if it is not for competition in getting a 'good' man? What is the motive for wanting to be beautiful?

I don't think it's unfeminist to want to look attractive. The media makes it worse but the standard is set by the media.
I think that sexual competition is natural but need not necessarily mean that we have to stab all our ''opponents'' in the back. Nature thrives on diversity after all. Some men may prefer curvy blondes, whilst others may prefer toned brunettes.

In answer to some; I consider myself a feminist and I am in awe of femininity. However, I would not look down on those who are not into girly attire. I think the most important thing is to be clean and well turned out.
It dosn't mean you have to wear fake tan or nails but I feel bettre if I am clean and wearing clean, attractive clothes. I don't want to look like a complete scruff. Dosn't mean I'm not a feminist.
I don't think that shaving oppresses women. How exactly? Men shave too! Their faces. To attract women.

The Rights of White Rich Men

• I am born free
• Everything I want I can have
• I am not expected to undertake any distasteful or onerous task
• Everything I expend effort on is valuable, everything I don't expend effort on is worthless
• Any violation of these rules is an outrageous arrogation of power and must be instantly dealt with using as much force as necessary.
• The use of force is distateful but at times required, if there are casulaties then it is their own fault for trying to upset the natural order of things.
• I am a fundamentally good and charitable person and will prove this by acts of largesse and generosity from time to time as I see fit.

The Rights of Everyone Else

• You are not born free, your place in the world has been predetermined by nature.
• Everything you want is a utopian dream but keep clinging to it if it makes you happy.
• It is necessary to work hard and do things you don't want to - such is life.
• Everything you do is worthless which is why you don't get paid much if at all for it.
• Attempting to gain more than your lot in life is an outrageous arrogation of power and against the laws of nature - it is likely that the world will come to an end if you try.
• The use of force by you is completely unacceptable and an act of terrorism.
• You are a fundamentally bad person proven by the fact that you occupy such a lowly position - if you were a good person like me you would reap the reward as I have done.
• You need me to tell you what to do and protect you from yourself.