why do women collude in their own oppression?

[ColdComfortFarm]

Following the notorious Sebastian Horley thread, I feel utter despair at the way women defend their oppressors. Black people would never attend the funeral of someone who advocated cutting up black people with chainsaws, enslaving and raping them, so why do women? I'm not a fool, I know that society protects misogynists in a way it does not protect racists, but even so, why do women support women-haters in a way that Jews or black people (for example) do not? And how can we change this?

"Masculinity and patriarchy is men "

Yes. You've quoted me but I dont understand your point.

I don't know.

Let's ask Dolly Parton.

Personally I find the terms Uncle Tom and Self-Hating Jew deeply offensive. I have always heard them used as either ethnic slurs by bigoted whites, or as emotionally violent accusations by blacks or jews against those who dared to not toe the party line, whatever it was at the moment.

I collude in my own oppression to a certain extent. I mean, what the fuck do I think is going to happen if I don't? The universe suddenly coming into focus exactly as I want it? Hardly. Not gonna happen in my lifetime, and I want to enjoy my life, which means shrugging my shoulders at times and just getting on with it. This means I am usually suffering a low level of despair, but suffering less than I would if I were fighting all the damn time. Honestly, I used to be very active in 'feminism.' Now, I do care, deeply, but I pick my battles because I am fucking exhausted, maybe somewhat defeated.

What PP said about desiring a sexual relationship. Saying all that, sometimes I think I should just get over being heterosexual and shack up with a radical chick because I am over the kinds of compromises I apparently must make for the approval of men.

Have probably been too honest.

OP, slouching, I was OP

Slouching I think most of us collude in our own oppression to some extent. For example I wax my legs, wear lipstick, wear high heels even though I know it's bad for me. Of course it makes for an easier life to be approved of and unthreatening to most of the people around you. It's how far you collude though isn't it - to the extent where you celebrate and defend someoen who publicly spoke about you with total contempt, looks so completely lacking in self-respect. It looks really alienated from oneself, really Stockholm Syndromed.

My husband doesn't care if I wear lipstick or wax my legs. I care much more than him. I suppose I do want approval but not to the extent that I grovel to men who hate me. That's where I cease to understand. Actually, to be honest, I don't care if random, strange men don't like me. I'm not rude or unkind, just utterly indifferent.

Agreed.

As for the 'petty' beauty stuff, I'm very torn about how much I capitulate. On the one hand, I want approval and to be desired. On the other, I can't be bothered and am full of resentment that I am not good enough just like this. And then there's the POV that a multi-cultural feminism would accept that humans like to decorate themselves and change their bodies and it's really no big deal. Except that multi-national corporations are involved in our patriarchal beauty scam so it's very different to authentic self-expression through adornment, transformation etc.

When I look at my poor, tragic mother, I can see how much she loathes herself. What she does to herself, beauty-wise, is insane, and she looks awful. Obvious plastic surgery, coloured hair, kabuki make-up, affected drag queenish 'feminine' mannerisms. I can see why she is such an easy target for abusive men. She is a deeply insecure narcissist and she looks like one. All they have to do is approach, flatter her, wait until she's in position, and attack. She has spent my whole life seeking male attention, ending up in the shit, then having to shovel herself out before doing it all over again. Yet she considers herself a feminist. And once asked me was I not so proud that we had survived (all the abusive men and dire situations she put us in) and were so strong and resilient, yay for women, roar.

why is feminism out of fashion?...simple its so bloody boring......what gut would revel in living with rad feminist....if there are any guys here please post i'm curious..

That is so sad for you about your mother, Slouching.I can really hear the frustration and despair in your description

Whats your definition of rad feminist, slightreturn?

militant minded women who tend to bitch about a patriachal society, endlessly whining about inequality etc etc etc....is that enough..?

To my mind, there are different flavours of feminism, and I would position myself more with socialist feminists than radical feminists. Others might be libertarian feminists etc etc. But someone who equates fighting female oppression with whining is technically known as an arsehole.

yes i can see all middle class women like Justine Roberts, Carrie Longton and friends mst be continually oppressed.......must be hell of a life eh?

The intimate nature of the prostitute-client relationship is much more complex than it first appears. Whether women are affluent call girls or street girls with few resources, clients sometimes find prostitutes? company comforting and therapeutic. At times, the only thing a client is looking for is simple warmth and human contact, even though he might initially define that need as sex. Time spent with a person who listens can be comforting and emotionally beneficial to one person in the same way that seeking out a professional psychologist might be reassuring to another. The belief that the prostitute-client relationship is always mercenary, cold, and mechanical simply is not always true. Men experienced with prostitutes have sometimes found that showing their humanity and concern for the prostitute sometimes makes the potentially awkward encounter more enjoyable for both.

Feminists should take more care in forming beliefs about prostitutes. Information and reflection on prostitution, then, has the potential for a humane, affirmative approach to this myth-laden institution.

Oh I see. Insightful.

Funny though that after all my training in psychotherapy, I never felt the need to shoot up between client sessions...ho hum.

Anyway, well done Kate.

Do you think the prostitutes gain the same benefits from the transaction?

I wonder how many men would seek out a prostitute for a bit of warmth and human contact if he weren't also buying access to her body?

Damn. And to think I could have set up a warmth, human contact and lemonade stand instead of working all the shit jobs I did to get through various universities. Obviously there would have been no need for me to shave or anything, and I could have worn my old joggers, since I am more able to provide emotional cuddles when really comfortable.

STW, sorry if me posting those links was upsetting. I agree that they are ethnic slurs, and that is in fact pointed out in the links. I included them to point out that the accusation of collusion in groups linked to social justice campaigns is hugely problematic and prone to misuse, which is also discussed in the links, particularly the second one. I posted them in response to the examples given in the OP.

I certainly would not advocate anyone using such terms, whether they belonged to specific minority group or not. So sorry to you or anyone else who would rather not have such terms mentioned on the thread.

This thread is very interesting. I was wondering the same thing when the raol moat story was on, and so many people supported him. A woman even set up a fan site for him. And this was a man that used to beat his girlfriend, and finally shot her.

Gotcha Milly. Thank you :)

'yet it seems that, say, Jews and black people seem to have created a stronger identity than women and to collude less in their oppression'

What?!? Jewish women and BME women have the same identity as Jewish men and BME men? There is ONE Jewish identity and ONE BME identity?

'A lot of the radical feminist argument I see on here never considers the grey (or the other side), and instead makes fundamental sweeping judgements about all of masculinity and males.I don't see that male/female is so divergent and the rhetoric simply creates and perpetuates a deeper separation and thus I don't think anything is achieved for women.'

Absolutely! In fact it not only achieves nothing, it ensures that many people who would work for the aims of feminism don't as they are completely turned off.

'Feminists should take more care in forming beliefs about prostitutes. Information and reflection on prostitution, then, has the potential for a humane, affirmative approach to this myth-laden institution.'

The myths as set out by the users of prostution? Ha bloody ha! In the vast majority of 'transactions' a man is paying a woman to wank into her body. This isn't a belief I have formed but knowledge from accounts written by women who have been involved with prostitution.

We wouldn't be where we were today if it weren't for radical feminists.

I have heard so-called feminists spout lies that feminists are racist and classist.
This is a distortion of history, and is an ethno-centric view. For example, some groups of feminists in certain countries have been.

And this very viewpoint is confusing because it suggests that only white women, or middle class women have historically been feminists. This is a strange point of view to hold. Did working class women, despite being disenfranchised, not run businesses and have community networks? Were they not midwives? All these areas are branches of feminism. What about the black midwives who worked for free, and illegaly in the US because black women could not afford proper medical treatment. Were they not feminists? On the topic of race, were the Japanese housewives in the 1970s who fought against pornography not feminist?

The answer is yes they were. Many feminists have never been white or middle class so this idea that feminists exclude other women is an argument often used by anti-feminists.

'NOW' feminist activists in America were racist and classist, only fighting about white middle-class concerns. In the same decade Andrea Dworkin, a prolific radical feminist, wrote reams of work pointing this out. Betty Friedan, radical for her 'feminine Mystique' worked hard on trying to get people to work together in "The Second Stage"

But radical feminsits' points of view are always ignored and glossed over as insignificant to further the aims and ends of those people who don't want women to be identified as a group that share the common experience of biology.

So to those who wish to denigrate radical feminists, by all means disagree with their POV, but it is ridiculous to say that radical feminism divides women. It does not and this is a harmful distortion.

'...those people who don't want women to be identified as a group'

You can put me in that camp. I want to identify as myself with my own strengths and weeknesses.

I want all people to be identified as people.

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