why do women collude in their own oppression?

[ColdComfortFarm]

Following the notorious Sebastian Horley thread, I feel utter despair at the way women defend their oppressors. Black people would never attend the funeral of someone who advocated cutting up black people with chainsaws, enslaving and raping them, so why do women? I'm not a fool, I know that society protects misogynists in a way it does not protect racists, but even so, why do women support women-haters in a way that Jews or black people (for example) do not? And how can we change this?

I'm asking really. As a rather ignorant woman on these issues I am interested in the idea of femininity and whether or not it is in conflict with feminism. I would spew my own views but I fear they would sound quite stupid.

I like to be looked after, in a reciprocal way, and that means my DH does the heavy stuff! This also means I like to be complimented about my appearance and I wear make up and attempt to look my best in a womanly way. I like a man to hold a door open, but then I hold them too!

Oh bugger dc3 is messing around and DH is dealing with DC's 1&2!!

I feel that my desire to appear feminine etc was not helpful to me when I was younger. In fact, I think it was undermining me in all sorts of ways. Superficial attention from arseholes of various kinds was not good for me, and did not make me happy. You only have to look at the fact that supermodels often do not have wonderful personal lives to see that even spectacular good looks do not give women power. Nor does it protect them from misogyny. As I've got older I feel much less interested in appearing attractive to men in general. I like clothes and fix my hair etc, but what strange men think of me is of no interest to me at all. It's liberating, it really is.

It must be really limiting going about worried what random people think of you beyond smart / scruff level (not saying you do that PP btw! Plenty I know do)

For me, I care what DH thinks as I want to him to fancy me as p[art of our relationship; I care whether I feel good about myself, and for me that's usually slightly quirky stuff or when needed standard mummy unifirm but never joggers etc as I personally feel very low about myself if I wear them (I seriously was not built for them! )

But if some random bloke in Asda doesn;t think me attractive- so? I very rarely find random men attractive either. When I do it's a twinkle or a smile: no outfit can replace that and I woudln't want it to either.

Because I am single I like to make a good impression on everyone as it helps boost my self-esteem and well you never know!

When I am in a serious relationship I like to look good for my partner and everyone else too. i do care how I look to the outside world but I try to base that on my own tastes rather than the lastest trend etc.

I don't think that it's anti-feminist to take pride in one's appearance.

About this beign attractive to random men thing.

I haven't really been out to the pub in the evening for a couple of years due to babies and no sleep and not feeling like it etc.

Anyway I went last night, just to the local, not a meat markety one just one with a mix of ages, quite a friendly place with a band.

And men just look at you, don't they. I mean not just look, they stare in a really creepy way. Why do they do that?

I had been thinking that things had got a lot better in this department since I got older (and bigger ) - the level of attention that you get as a young woman is just ludicrous. Like Sancti says - it doens't matter what some random bloke in ASDA thinks of you. But it kind of does when you're young, as if yuo don't meet their approval, or if you do, they will indicate that to you. You know that men are looking at you all the time and that can ilicit a range of feelings from insecurity to annoyance to anger to resigned acceptance to joining in wholeheartedly and playing up to it. But I thought that stuff had pretty much stopped now. Apparently not. I don't want men to stare at me in a creepy fashion, why do they do that? WHY?

They assess you, don't they?

Yuk.

These ones were just staring.

I can look at a man and see whether he's attractive or not, and if he is have another look, without staring and being creepy FGS. What is wrong with them?

It's taken me ages to appreciate how I look and comfortable with it. In my twenties my friends and I were barraged by male attention/ assessment. On the street, out in clubs etc. I felt angry to be constantly looked at and yes assessed.

I don't have that anymore, it is soo nice. A compliment is mild or flattering. A male noticing me doesn't feel like he is trying to own me. So much better in that respect.

How has that worked for you marsha?

I still feel the same feelings of anger when creepy men are creepy at me. I think, why can't you just piss off and leave me alone?

I guess I don't see as many creepy men... Not sure but I know I don't feel so angry. I don't go out much as have a 7.5 month baby and all the males at ds' school are very polite. I mean they are smiley and just under mildly interested but not too much.

I did go out last week and there were some idiotic men checking out the women. They were drunk and I thought idiots! But it must be that my world has shrunk due to having a baby recently.

I remember being so strident and wanting to prove stuff in my twenties, having short hair as long blonde hair was so symbolic of something (back then anyway). Not being able to wear heels without attracting idiots etc

Is long blonde hair symbolic of something? Even if worn with eg rock/indie baggy clothes, or demure work clothes, or jeans and flats?

I thought it only "meant something" as part of a package IYSWIM.

Marsha I thought things were better as I am older etc, but after last night I think it's that I simply don't go out in the evening much any more. I don't get blokes shouting out of cars any more, which is a bonus. But still creepy men in pubs are creepy... I wonder when it stops. Menopause?

Beertricks I used to say that when I was in my 20s (we're having a quiet drink by ourselves etc) but they'd quite often get aggressive about it, or simply refuse to go away

It did seem to be even without the extras. Lots of fresh-faced blondes (I wasn't in the UK, but Oz where it seems to be worse, or maybe just because I was younger). A swish of the hair and to us it felt like a big deal. Lots of grunge/ anti feminine stuff was around at same time. Loads of girls kicking back against the looks I guess.

Hmmm

I have always wondered whether my hair has been sending out mysterious "signals" against my wishes...

I absolutely don't feel the same way about my highlighted mid length blonde hair anymore isn't! Just in early twenties, not in UK.

I didn't get approached last night, just stared at. The reason I noticed was that it was two (or three?) different blokes who did it. One I would have put down to standard creep quotient and not registered.

Yuuurgh.