The Roots of Misogyny

[wukter]

Why is practically every human society across all times, places and cultures dominated by men?
I have read that War on Women article that MillyR linked to. It's chilling. Why is it everywhere?

I would be interested in your thoughts, or maybe there is actually a simple, widely accepted answer that I could be pointed to.

I don't think we can talk about "all times" wukter - recorded history for the most part is limited and short.

Short answer is I don't know, but I suspect the foundation of it is in the physical strength aspect. Playground stuff really, the big kids boss the little kids around.

There was an interesting discussion on the radio last year with some anthropologists who blamed the invention of fire/cooking with the start of the oppression of women. Before that people were just hunter gatherers and nomads for the most part - I guess the domestic sphere was invented then. The perspective these people put on it was that the men acted like a protection racket, forcing the women to stay in and look after the fire/stores.

blamed sorry am tired, I meant "associated".

blamed sorry am tired, I meant "associated".

I remember from some documentary yrs ago that they discovered from the bones of womens feet (this was during still living in caves but crops were being grown) that they were deformed from long periods of being hunkered down grinding flour whilst the men lounged and chatted. So I suppose that would match EAM's post.

Oh and there was evidence of early porn too, some images carved on small stones.

EAM, thanks, I had thought as much re the physical strength, but somehow felt that was too simple. And yes, I did mean the times we know of, which is not that much really.
SAF thank you, that is very interesting. I hadn't thought of the idea of meat as a currency before. Can you recommend any reading on this subject, it's fascinating.
Your post ties in with some half remembered book I read ages ago (in the context of the origins of religion). In prehistory, people worshipped the Earth Mother as a symbol of the reproductive capacities of the female, as they lacked any knowledge of the male input.
The development of agriculture marked the shift from Earth Mother worship to Sky Father worship, as the idea of the seed activating the passive Earth took hold. Which lead to the idea as male as instigator of life and woman mere vessel.
Seashore, there is a theory that those female forms were represenatations of the Life Goddess/ Earth Mother rather than porn as such.

It's all coming back to me know, in a rambling disjointed way.

Men are physically stronger, and are more power driven (and often more intelligent)

how many women have invented anything brilliant?

all the life changing inventions have been made by men....why is that?

even the dyson was invented by a man fgs.

'all the life changing inventions have been made by men....why is that?'

• access to education, freedom from the 24 hr drudgery of housework/childcare just off the top of my head DP.

Read Shakespeare's Sister.

More intelligent? More intelligent??

Oh good grief.I agree with Wukter,women have been hampered over the years by mostly having to reproduce,with the attendant health risks,and look after men,while the men were free to get stuck into whatever field interested them,and had the education available to make the most of that opportunity.

hahahaha daftpunk.

It's a mystery isn't it, when you think of the copious free time and educational opportunities available to women throughout recorded history? What on earth have they been playing at? Must just be thick then.

Maybe they are? Women can't even invent stuff to make our own lives easier; washing machines, f/f and bottles to break free from breast feeding, all invented by men. What has a women invented to make my life easier? You can't blame it all on lack of education, women have been educated for years.

Men may be more intelligent than you Daftpunk, but they're not generally more intelligent than me.

It's what you do with that intelligence isn't it......that's what separates people.

Not really DP - the examples you cite were invented before women had much access to education.

For all we know, a woman invented the wheel / fire before society became inbalanced in favour of men.

Some useful inventions by women here

Yes and what we know from history, is that women on the whole haven't been allowed to do anything with their intelligence. Their lives have been constrained and confined by their sex. And yet still some of them, remarkably, managed to sneak through and invent/ write/ discover things.

And I simply can't think why you're so in love with the Dyson. They're shit.

Only to a point DP.
Anyone could have very high natural abilities, but if they've never had been educated it won't have reached it's full potential. So it's not a level playing field with regards to the uses made of intelligence.

swallowedafly - do you really think 'primitive' societies (generally more in tune with their own bodies and the earth in general) didn't realise for hundreds of years that fucking led to kids

Daftpunk - i think it's more about attitude than intelligence. Women have a tendency to get all the small stuff done before they think bigger - or at least that is how it has been. Possible social engineering by men to make women 'enablers' - i don't think it's an in built thing in the female brain.

It's sweet, DP, that you can't conceive of the millions of times a girl or woman has started tinkering with some machines, playing with her brothers chemistry set or just sat down with a pen and paper and starting to draw a plan, only to be called away to cook lunch/clean the floor/see to the baby/not touch that stuff because it's for boys.

Education for women has been around for years, you're right. Where I went to university it was 25 years exactly. The women who'd been pioneers there are all of 48 now.

My mum's friend had to leave school at 13 to look after the children when her mum died.
Her (older) brother has a highflying career. Needless to say mum's friend (56) does not.

Lol at dyson, I'm not a big fan, never had one.

Re: girls being called away to cook/ clean etc. why are all the top chiefs men? Vast majority of top fashion designers/ hair stylists/ interior designers are male. If these are 'female' considered 'things' why aren't we more dominant in these professions.
It must all come down to babies. Women have them and then dedicate their lives to them. That's it really.

I would say that we don't know why or when male dominance first started to happen.

The fire and cooking argument I certainly disagree with. Homo Erectus used fire, and so it wasn't invented by our species. It is very likely that our species evolved as one that was dependent on processed food. There are some humans that eat large quantities of raw food (Inuit, for example), but they are in very specific ecological conditions and consume species that have huge amounts of fat, like seals.

I think that hierarchical behaviour with a strong link to physical aggression started with agriculture. Certainly there is no evidence of war like massacres of women and children from Mesolithic cultures until the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition. We also know that the health of women and children massively declined after the invention of agriculture.

An argument that I consider plausible is that the population increase was caused by agriculture, which meant that people became much more territorial and needed to increase their territories to feed bigger populations. That led to wars and battles. Men don't get pregnant and don't breastfeed, so can be sent off to war - that increased their status and control. Agriculture also depends on creating surpluses to prepare for bad year with harvest failures; surpluses require hierarchies to control the distribution of the surplus. Lots of men being sent off to war creates a lot of extra work for women; agriculture is hugely labour intensive compared to hunter-gathering anyway.

But we don't live in such times now, and we can get rid of male domination of women around the world.

Quite simple really men stronger/faster as to more intelligent don't think so however there have been studies that show that males tend to be in a large spread across the IQ spectrum meaning there is more males than females that have low IQs but also more males that are at the high end also, females are more balanced females are in both categories of the low and high end but the spread is smaller meaning more females take up the middle ground.

Anyway i don't think it's due to intelligence, i believe it is because females have children and also provide the food for young children and as males are stronger and faster (in general) it is logical they would do the heavy duty stuff e.g. hunting/protecting clan/group etc.

If we go back to origins of humans well it's safe to say that there was hardly any 'freedom' to do what you want, but what must be done in order to survive and the stereotypical roles of males and females improved survival as both are biologically suited to those roles.

As societies grow and become more advanced they simply build on what is already there leading to what you now know as patriarchal societies although there are variations and some societies where women were able to do like the men (read of the women of Sparta).

It is now in the modern era that women can truly do as the men (in most aspects) however we must accept that there are biological differences and so there will be different circumstances for the different sexes i.e. women are the ones who get pregnant.

Women can now change society now as we now live in a way that both sexes can take advantage of what is available to them. Change will be slow but lasting change of peoples views and way of thinking tends to be slow.

Our Dyson was fucking useless. I wish it had been invented by a woman- it might have worked properly.