The Roots of Misogyny

[wukter]

Why is practically every human society across all times, places and cultures dominated by men?
I have read that War on Women article that MillyR linked to. It's chilling. Why is it everywhere?

I would be interested in your thoughts, or maybe there is actually a simple, widely accepted answer that I could be pointed to.

You're all intelligent women, maybe you should be inventing a decent Hoover instead of spending half the day on mumsnet.

I have resolved the hoover problem. I have followed the example of Icelandic women (again). I don't have carpets.

Exactly- women are smart enough to avoid problems in the first place instead of devising macho solutions to them.

TheDoodler - I remmber being taught at school that Australian Aborigines hadn't worked out the connection between sex and pregnancy when James Cook tipped up there. So unless that's a myth, I find it quite credible to believe that lots of primitive societies also wouldn't have worked out the link.

Fascinating thread. Don't know enough to comment but this is something I have always wondered about so looking forward to seeing some more responses, especially from Dittany when she arrives.

Why are you running all over the boards being deliberately provocative DP?

Are you currently experiencing some sort of mental health crisis that involves maximum attention seeking behaviour?

Stop asking everyone else why they are on MN all day on every thread you go on and fuck off and do something more productive with your own time instead wny don't you? How about seeking some professional help for the fact that you are obviously suffering from some kind of personality disorder. My heart sinks everytime I see you on a thread, though you probably get off on having that effect don't you?

For the third time why have you broken your word about only staying on the Music Threads for three months?

I've posted on 2 threads today, haven't been on mumsnet for over a week, so hardly all over the place.

Wukter, I wonder if your 'half remembered book' was Robert Graves' The White Goddess? Long time since I read it, though.

My thought has always been that patriarchy was born of the establishment of property and the rights of inheritance that arise from that. That ties in with SwallowedAFly's point about 'paternal certainty' in her very interesting post. Though the establishment of property alone would not explain why inheritance should follow a patrilineal rather than matrilineal line. SwallowedAFly's post about meat-as-prestige-gift and MillyR's on territorial expansion are both pertinent here, I think.

And yet on both you have had a go at the posters on them for being on MN too much.

Both threads are linked really.

apologies for upsetting you in anyway.

Thank you.

Any my question about only staying on the Music Threads for three months?

I bought this book www.amazon.co.uk/Brief-History-Misogyny-Histories/dp/1845293711 that you might find interesting - especially so as its written by a man. Shows how misogyny has been around forever, long before marriage became a function for the oppression of women. Its easy to read and very though provoking.

What can i say about the music threads, I really tried to stay on them for 3 months but it was just so boring. I missed talking to other posters. I think I managed 2 months....so not too bad

how about forgiving my weakness?

Fair enough.

I just don't understand your need to be so provocative and try to rile people up when you DO post.

My Mum is a bit like that, it is as though she gets bored if things are going nicely and only thrives when there is a big row going on so she lobs grenades into the mix to get things going a bit. Makes life very wearing actually and so I avoid her now. Are you actually like this is real life DP?

Anyway apologies for hijacking your thread OP. Have ordered that book Jazzicatz.

I never intend to be provocative, I never intend to wind people up, I want people on my side, I want to post on threads without being reminded of things I said 2 years ago. You know my youngest child is 10, I may need parenting advice and help for another 6 plus years, I hope I can call on that facility without being ignored or attacked for issues that are unrelated. I am not, and never have been an attention seeker. I'm not stupid, I know that the most popular and well liked posters are the nice, non- controversial ones, they also get the most attention. If I wanted popularity and attention I'd be so nice I'd be off the scale. Unfortunately for me, I don't care about being liked, I just say what I think and that's it. There's no plan.

Sincere apologies for thread hijack.

I'm sure anxieties about paternity and ownership of property feeds into misogyny in a big way. When you think of the extradordinary lengths men have gone to to ensure that their children are their own - locking women up, chaperoning, burkas, stoning or other executions for adultery, etc etc etc.

While you anthropoligical types are here, can you confirm whether I'm right in thinking there's something fishy about the sterotype of "hunter/gatherer" societies. The idea people seem to have is that each man went off all day on his own (much as commuters do today), threw a spear at something and lugged it home, before sitting on his arse and staring at the fire. Women meanwhile stayed at home like Wilma Flintstone, sat inside a cave minding the children, occasionally popped out for a berry or two, then cooked dinner when Ug and Urgh came home.

Firstly, surely men hunted together, as they do in most such societies today?

The hunting must have been an occasional, if vital, part of the diet, so the women must have been out all day as well, roaming around a large area to collect the staple foods?

And children with them and working or being looked after by less mobile?

Yes elepahants hunter/gatherer societies lived very communally (lived together/raised children together/hunt together etc) in the past nowadays everyone does it on their own or with their direct family members.

Women will gather and i believe they brought along children of a certain age with them some would stay back and look after the youngest (one of the benefits of having children at the same time. There may also be elders and a number of men there also in order to protect their 'village'? from unwanted guests.

Elephants, it is claimed that on average each person only needs to work for two hours a day in order to support a hunter gatherer tribe. So for most of the time, everyone would just be around the camp enjoying their leisure time.

Most food in hunter-gatherer society is gathered by women. Many tribes have male and female hunters, but some just have male hunters. While some hunting is of big game, a lot of hunting is actually of smaller animals and fish. So a lot of 'hunting' is actually walking along beaches with nets to catch fish and baskets to put shell fish in that are living on rocks.

Both hunting and gathering are communal activities. Even babies will often accompany mothers as they can be carried in slings. The average age gap between children in hunter-gatherer society is 4 years, so a mother would only have one slower child to carry/breastfeed/look after at a time.

Hunting and gathering skills are nevertheless difficult to learn, and it takes until 18 for a person to be able to fully contribute to their group. Usually hunter-gatherers delay pregnancy until about 18 or 19.

"anthropological", dur sorry.

That's interesting Sammyuni.

It seems weird that women are "biologically suited" to the one essential thing - having babies. And yet they are not respected for this?

Thanks for that Jazzicatz, that looks very interesting, I will order it.

Interesting about the spirit visiting the woman and impregnating her - Sound familiar?

Also interesting as in very old societies motherhood was seen as mysterious. Motherhood was painted as a sacred and a powerful spiritual path.

Some of the earliest carvings of 'motherhood' are around 24,000?22,000 BCE (before the introduction of agriculture which is 10,000 BCE)

Many ancient cultures worshiped female deities 'mother goddess' although some she was part of a pantheon.

Wukter, that's what I would have thought too that those images were most likely revered female images, I can't remember the name of this programme, and they had no explaination as to why these carving should be early porn, but I'm supposing that they had concluded that this particular society was extremely male dominated.

Can someone answer the caveman question? Did it start there and is this why men are perceived as superior?