The older I get the less bad I think the Collins' marriage in Pride and Prejudice is

[BlackAmericanoNoSugar]

When I first read P&P as a teenager I was very caught up in the hatred to love romance of Lizzie and Darcy. I'm still a sucker for that sort of story arc. For a long time I thought Charlotte was cheated of a happy ending, I thought she deserved much better than Mr Collins. I still think that she deserved better but now that I'm much older I can see that it isn't an unhappy ending either.

I still wouldn't want Mr Collins for myself but I've been listening to Dr Octavia Cox on YouTube (she's great) on various aspects of Jane Austen's books and when she was talking about the nature of marriage and Austen's examples of good and bad marriages it helped to make it clear that, actually, Charlotte could have had a very much worse story arc.

Mr Collins, for all that he's annoying, isn't a bad husband. He clearly respects and listens to Charlotte, he allows her to direct him in a way that makes the marriage comfortable. For instance, she encourages him to work in the garden for his health, and he does. She has a lot of freedom to run the household to suit herself. I can't think of anywhere in the book that Mr Collins is rude or unappreciative of Charlotte, certainly not in the way the Mr Bennett often talks down to or is dismissive of Mrs Bennett. Mr Collins clearly feels that he chose his wife well, he likes his wife's family and gets along well with his father-in-law. She fits the advice of Lady Catherine, useful sort of woman and genteel enough to be in high-level company.

While she misses out on true love, there are lots of ways it could have been so much worse for Charlotte who didn't have good looks or a large dowry. She also seemed to have passive parents, for all that Mrs Bennett is a bit crude and pushy she is at least striving to get her daughters well-settled, Charlotte's parents don't seem all that bothered about her future. It would have been uncomfortable to be a spinster and reliant on her brothers for her whole life. She also might have ended up with a husband with a vice, eg abusive, a womaniser, a gambler, an alcoholic.

Good thing they had brothers!

@MotionActivatedDog

I'm glad I live in 2021 and have choices beyond 'live out my days as a maiden aunt with no real home to call my own' or 'marry a man like Mr.Collins'.

I’ve just realised I live in Georgian England. But not even a Mr Collins has shown an interest.

Same! Will be living in genteel poverty. No suitors. But im not trying to go to couply high society dinner parties!

We must all display elegant economy.

@Copperas

Good thing they had brothers!

Yes, I assume Miss Bates didn't have brothers.

Has anybody else read The Quincunx, by Charles Palliser? The name suggests a 19th century British writer, but he was born in the US in 1947 (although he's been in the UK since the age of three, used to be an English lecturer). The Quincunx was his first novel, published in 1990.

Like many classic novels of the mid-Victorian era (Dickens/Thackeray/Trollope/Eliot/Collins/Gaskell), the events of the novel are early 19th century, but the narrators are looking back from decades later. Stylistically, it's very like Victorian fiction, but Palliser had the freedom to portray far more realistically than any Victorian novelist could have done what actually happens to a woman from a middle class background who falls into poverty with no family support. I won't elaborate in case anyone wants to read it - I would strongly recommend it. It just came to mind while we're all ruminating about Charlotte and Mr Collins.

Another Jane Austen character who comes to mind is Mrs Smith, Anne's friend in Persuasion. She's a widow whose husband was a fool with money and lives in genteel poverty in Bath. As she's in ill health, her chances of a second marriage are poor. Not many real life Mrs Smiths would have had the good luck to have a friend like Anne Elliot.

Charlotte made the same decision that millions of single women made at that time - marriage to a suitable man, who would provide for her and give her a respectable place in society. In return her husband would (hopefully) get an heir and someone to run his home and take care of the household. All in all, a totally practical and sensible arrangement for both sides.

Romantic love, lust and passion really weren't part of the marriage equation for the vast majority, and neither were they even expected to be. Consequently, no one felt they were necessarily missing out or making a bad choice.

Also, don't forget that Charlotte describes herself as 'not romantic' - and in the 19th century 'romantic' had a different definition to what it has today. Back then, 'romantic' didn't mean the hearts & flowers, and loving gestures that we associate it with now. Instead, being 'romantic' meant being an emotional rebel, a free spirit who followed the dictates of their heart not their head. So, Charlotte is acknowledging that her nature isn't to be a free spirit or to crave excitement. She is deeply, deeply conventional which is why, ultimately, she finds contentment in her marriage to Mr Collins.

I never felt pity for Charlotte. She would have been very uncomfortable and unhappy having to deal with a passionate handful of a husband like Mr Darcy.

I popped in here, just as it's beginning to get dark on a hot summer night, and I found the words "having to deal with a passionate handful of a husband like Mr. Darcy."

I could deal with a passionate handful of Mr Darcy 😜😆

I reckon millions of single women all over the world are still making the same choices as Charlotte- marriages that please their parents and fit in with their family culture (in literature too e.g. Lata in A Suitable Boy settles for Haresh the dull, stocky but kindly shoemaking bore over who the gorgeous guy her heart sings for). There are endless threads on here about "settling" but women in their late 30's who want a family life and children before the biological clock ticks down.

@upinaballoon

I popped in here, just as it's beginning to get dark on a hot summer night, and I found the words "having to deal with a passionate handful of a husband like Mr. Darcy."

You're welcome ☺️

Huh it had never occurred to me thar Mr Collins should be a Bennet, but of course that is right, as the entail would have to pass down the male line (not just to a male heir). One of the Collins ancestors must be assumed to have changed his name for this to work.

@BlackAmericanoNoSugar

When I was listening to Octavia Cox she said something that had never occurred to me before, but that made perfect sense. She said that Mr Collins and Sir William were essentially the same personality and that's why Charlotte was so deft at managing Mr Collins, because she'd had a lifetime of practise already. They were both garrulous and sociable, both fond of giving their opinion, both very impressed with people of higher social status and both liked to show off.

I love listening to Octavia Cox on YouTube. She makes such excellent points about the characters in Jane Austen's work.

I know nothing about her except that she really does make you think about them.

She is great, isn't she. I often dislike too much analysis of books that I enjoy as the dull, dryness of it can suck the emotional pleasure out of the book for me, but she is very lively and adds interest to side stories that I hadn't paid much attention to before.

Loving this thread! Having just finished rereading P&P I'm struck with the idea that once Mr B dies and Charlotte and Mr Collins inherit Longbourne, surely Mary will be their responsibility and live with them. That would be a great sequel!

Mary has two sisters married to very wealthy men, plus Mrs Bennet is expected to still be alive after Mr Bennet dies. If Mr Darcy has any sense he will buy a nice little house for Mrs Bennet and any unmarried sisters to live in near her sister in Meryton, thus avoiding having his annoying MIL anywhere near him.

Thanks to the pp who recommended The Other Bennett Sister. I decided to treat myself, started it this morning and am absolutely loving it. I think that she captures Jane Austen's style brilliantly without it turning into a pastiche, and she brings Mary and Charlotte to life so well. It makes me feel quite cross with Austen for portraying Mary so unsympathetically.

I've just finished reading The Other Bennett Sister. I found myself racing to finish it because I desperately wanted to know what was going to happen but at the same time, I didn't want it to end. Mary is now definitely my favourite Bennett sister.

@cariadlet, I did the same thing and finished the book well after midnight last night. The characters are so true to the original work and I loved seeing Mary develop confidence once she was removed from Mrs B's influence.

I've recommended this book before, but will again - Miss Austen by Gill Hornby is a moving look at what happens to sisters who don't marry, and at who will control your legacy and history when you have no immediate family left. It's a fictionalised version of Cassandra Austen's life that moves back and forth in time and tries to explain why the elderly Cassandra burnt a large amount of Jane's correspondence. I donate many books that I read, but this one was a 'keeper' for me.

I don't think Charlotte made a good choice particularly, the thought of that non-stop low level irritation is difficult to bear. Austen is quite brutal at putting people, particularly women, into situations that in her time would have been considered quite lucky, and implies 'well? How lucky are they really? Do you think this is easy?'

Re Miss Bates, I think Mr Woodhouse would have talked of a legacy for her as his old friend, but would never have done anything about it. However, Emma and Mr Knightley would have pretended he had and made sure she had a roof and an income.

I have wondered about the Miss Bates situation. In fiction genteel women with no income decline into tasteful penury and starve quietly, unless they are (un)lucky enough to become an unpaid companion or a governess. I wonder what happened historically? Would women really have ended up abandoning gentility so as not to starve?

Thing is, Charlotte very quickly organises the household so that she sees next to nothing of her husband. She sits in a room at the back, and spends her time busy with the housekeeping etc. So a ten minute shag once a week might be the extent of her real contact with him. In return she gets her home, plenty of money, children and status. The real fly in the ointment is lady Catherine, but she can't live forever, she's already middle aged. Charlotte does ok.

On the back of this thread I ordered "The Other Bennet Sister" and it is arriving tomorrow. Excited much? You bet!

I do think Charlotte underestimates how marriage changes you though. A very subtle touch in the 95 series was how by the end, Charlotte was becoming as anxious and obsequious around Lady Catherine as her husband. She wasn't going to escape becoming a Collins.

I am loving "The Other Bennet Sister".
Thank you for the recommendation.