The older I get the less bad I think the Collins' marriage in Pride and Prejudice is

[BlackAmericanoNoSugar]

When I first read P&P as a teenager I was very caught up in the hatred to love romance of Lizzie and Darcy. I'm still a sucker for that sort of story arc. For a long time I thought Charlotte was cheated of a happy ending, I thought she deserved much better than Mr Collins. I still think that she deserved better but now that I'm much older I can see that it isn't an unhappy ending either.

I still wouldn't want Mr Collins for myself but I've been listening to Dr Octavia Cox on YouTube (she's great) on various aspects of Jane Austen's books and when she was talking about the nature of marriage and Austen's examples of good and bad marriages it helped to make it clear that, actually, Charlotte could have had a very much worse story arc.

Mr Collins, for all that he's annoying, isn't a bad husband. He clearly respects and listens to Charlotte, he allows her to direct him in a way that makes the marriage comfortable. For instance, she encourages him to work in the garden for his health, and he does. She has a lot of freedom to run the household to suit herself. I can't think of anywhere in the book that Mr Collins is rude or unappreciative of Charlotte, certainly not in the way the Mr Bennett often talks down to or is dismissive of Mrs Bennett. Mr Collins clearly feels that he chose his wife well, he likes his wife's family and gets along well with his father-in-law. She fits the advice of Lady Catherine, useful sort of woman and genteel enough to be in high-level company.

While she misses out on true love, there are lots of ways it could have been so much worse for Charlotte who didn't have good looks or a large dowry. She also seemed to have passive parents, for all that Mrs Bennett is a bit crude and pushy she is at least striving to get her daughters well-settled, Charlotte's parents don't seem all that bothered about her future. It would have been uncomfortable to be a spinster and reliant on her brothers for her whole life. She also might have ended up with a husband with a vice, eg abusive, a womaniser, a gambler, an alcoholic.

Jennifer Ehle still looks amazing - I wish I'd aged half as well!

The David Bamber Mr Collins was the absolute epitome of the character I think! He was utterly brilliant in that role..

I think Miss Bates would have been looked after by Jane , no doubt..

Teaching Romeo & Juliet. As I get older the more I think she should’ve married Paris and had a lovely stable time.

(Also, Paul Rudd in the Luhrmann…)

@BlackAmericanoNoSugar, are you sure I don't know you? I have had exactly this conversation - 'So I used to think it was just grim, ugh, bleurgh - but given her options....'

[quote GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]@BlackAmericanoNoSugar, are you sure I don't know you? I have had exactly this conversation - 'So I used to think it was just grim, ugh, bleurgh - but given her options....'[/quote]
Perhaps a LOT of middle-aged women have this conversation. And we all think we've thought of a unique and original perspective ourselves.

I like to think Charlotte swiped small trinkets every time she went to lady Catherine's house. A napkin one day, a small candlestick the next. Just to shake off the boredom. And then Mr Collins would find it all day in a cupboard and spend the next ten years discretely trying to replace the items

@Peppallama

I like to think Charlotte swiped small trinkets every time she went to lady Catherine's house. A napkin one day, a small candlestick the next. Just to shake off the boredom. And then Mr Collins would find it all day in a cupboard and spend the next ten years discretely trying to replace the items

Ooh ... and given that Lady Catherine liked nothing more than to rootle through Charlotte's cupboards to suggest a better arrangement of the linen, this would have led to a thrilling adrenaline rush whenever she condescended to pay a visit.

@Peppallama

I like to think Charlotte swiped small trinkets every time she went to lady Catherine's house. A napkin one day, a small candlestick the next. Just to shake off the boredom. And then Mr Collins would find it all day in a cupboard and spend the next ten years discretely trying to replace the items

No! That would have made her too much Becky Sharpe... I always wanted to know what happened to The Eltons...I think she would have become very bitter as time went on..

Colin Firth average! Noooooooooo. Never. He looks terrific now, not just for his age.

I don't think much has changed today. I know couples who have the dramatic passionate relationships and I know some women who decided for settle for a "nice but boring and maybe a little socially awkward man who'd make a good father and good provider". Ill give you three guesses which I think are happier 5 years down the line. Some people are just more practical and some more romantic.

I obv know lots of couples with non dramatic love and those are obv the best option

I always wanted to know what happened to The Eltons...I think she would have become very bitter as time went on..

I think Philip would have gone on to have affairs as his wife aged. Augusta have been a dreadfully fussy, pushy mother and their children would have been horrors. Possibly Phillip would have died quite young and Augusta would have come back into her element as a sort of grande dame figure in Highbury - a budget version of Lady Catherine.

Poor Charlotte would never have guessed there would be three in the marriage though. Lady Catherine with nothing to do except be a nosy busybody to all and sundry must have thought her dreams had come true with a submissive wife like Charlotte for Mr Collins. However frustrated Charlotte would have been with not having control over her linen, chickens, placement of furniture etc there would be no one she could vent to. Hopefully Lizzie corresponded frequently enough for her to at least make her feelings known and laugh about it.

It's possible Lady Catherine's daughter might have got married - once they'd got over the Darcy match not happening - in which case Lady Catherine's attentions would have been diverted from Charlotte to become the MIL from hell.

It's sobering to think quite a few of the female characters would have died in childbirth or from pregnancy complications. Also, any of the characters could have died from what we would now think of as trivial infections and accidents. Nobody could be sure of making old bones.

@TiddyAndFletch

Jennifer Ehle still looks amazing - I wish I'd aged half as well!

That would be because, as is the norm in the world of acting, the male lead (Firth) of that BBC drama was nearly a decade older than the female lead (Ehle). She is 51, he is 60 now. So no wonder there

I’ve always been much more Charlotte than Lizzie. Definitely not a Jane. As soon as I was old enough to actually understand the storyline, I was of the view that she’d made a decent match and done well for herself.

But then I also think Romeo and Juliet are a pair of pathetic teens (one on the rebound) with no strategic nouse and that all would have been fine if they’d just learned to bloody communicate!

Great thread!

I’ve always said Charlotte made a sensible choice. But then I’ve come from a culture where arranged marriage was the norm when my parents & I married. It’s based on compatibility & practicality rather than love. It’s worked for the most part.

Tbf Wheretobuy, Darcy is about 7/8 years older than Lizzy, so the age gap is appropriate in this case.

A marriage made for practical reasons usually has something left if the 'in love' feeling fades. Charlotte was never going to be in love with Mr Collins, but over time she'd probably develop a sort of affection for him. Any partner, as long as they're not abusive, is at least A.N.Other person to do things with and talk to, someone to share life's ups and downs - something that would have been even more important in Charlotte's time because women couldn't just go off and socialise on their own.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

It's sobering to think quite a few of the female characters would have died in childbirth or from pregnancy complications. Also, any of the characters could have died from what we would now think of as trivial infections and accidents. Nobody could be sure of making old bones.

I always got the sense that some of the main characters mothers died in childbirth.

Jane Austen mentions a still born son for Sir Walter which makes me wonder if Lady Elliot died in childbirth.

Mr Woodhouse gets very worried about Isabella having her babies which might suggest Mrs Woodhouse died that way.

@Bells3032

I don't think much has changed today. I know couples who have the dramatic passionate relationships and I know some women who decided for settle for a "nice but boring and maybe a little socially awkward man who'd make a good father and good provider". Ill give you three guesses which I think are happier 5 years down the line. Some people are just more practical and some more romantic.

I obv know lots of couples with non dramatic love and those are obv the best option

I'm not so sure. Plenty of nice but boring and socially awkward men having affairs and abusing wives.

I remember reading Romeo and Juliet as a teenager and even then thinking that Fair Rosalind had a lucky escape

Charlotte seems to be a bit of a snob herself. IIRC she genuinely does seem impressed with Lady CdB though not to her husband’s nauseating extent, and treats her condescension as a treat.

I assumed that Lady Lucas wasn’t as frantic about getting Charlotte married as Mrs B because the situation was far less desperate. Yes being a spinster sister dependent on your brother’s charity is far from ideal, but by comparison with what the Bennett girls were facing it’s an acceptable worst case scenario. After all it’s the situation that Jane Austen deliberately chose for herself when she turned down a proposal, so it’s clearly not worse than death.

I agree that Charlotte made a sensible choice. I think Lizzie does say that in the book - she says to Darcy something like "on a prudent view it's a good match for her".

In relation to a pp asking about Lady Elliott - I don't think there's a suggestion that she dies in childbirth. Her still born son was between Anne and Mary (it's in the Baronetage book) and she died when Anne was 14.

Place marking for a time when I get time to read this properly. I absolutely love pride and prej