The older I get the less bad I think the Collins' marriage in Pride and Prejudice is

[BlackAmericanoNoSugar]

When I first read P&P as a teenager I was very caught up in the hatred to love romance of Lizzie and Darcy. I'm still a sucker for that sort of story arc. For a long time I thought Charlotte was cheated of a happy ending, I thought she deserved much better than Mr Collins. I still think that she deserved better but now that I'm much older I can see that it isn't an unhappy ending either.

I still wouldn't want Mr Collins for myself but I've been listening to Dr Octavia Cox on YouTube (she's great) on various aspects of Jane Austen's books and when she was talking about the nature of marriage and Austen's examples of good and bad marriages it helped to make it clear that, actually, Charlotte could have had a very much worse story arc.

Mr Collins, for all that he's annoying, isn't a bad husband. He clearly respects and listens to Charlotte, he allows her to direct him in a way that makes the marriage comfortable. For instance, she encourages him to work in the garden for his health, and he does. She has a lot of freedom to run the household to suit herself. I can't think of anywhere in the book that Mr Collins is rude or unappreciative of Charlotte, certainly not in the way the Mr Bennett often talks down to or is dismissive of Mrs Bennett. Mr Collins clearly feels that he chose his wife well, he likes his wife's family and gets along well with his father-in-law. She fits the advice of Lady Catherine, useful sort of woman and genteel enough to be in high-level company.

While she misses out on true love, there are lots of ways it could have been so much worse for Charlotte who didn't have good looks or a large dowry. She also seemed to have passive parents, for all that Mrs Bennett is a bit crude and pushy she is at least striving to get her daughters well-settled, Charlotte's parents don't seem all that bothered about her future. It would have been uncomfortable to be a spinster and reliant on her brothers for her whole life. She also might have ended up with a husband with a vice, eg abusive, a womaniser, a gambler, an alcoholic.

He didn't propose out of 'spite' - he visited to find a suitable wife. Turned down by Lizzie, then accepted by Charlotte. He was quite upfront about his reason for visiting, and for proposing.

Mr Collins was also trying to do the decent thing. He knew that his inheriting Longbourne would be a source of worry for the Bennett women. The best thing he could do would be to marry one of the daughters. It was secure their home forever. He even knew to try to offer to Jane first as the eldest. Mrs Bennett knew this and that's why she was so keen for him to marry Lizzie after she hinted that Jane was soon to be engaged.

I think in marrying Charlotte he also hoped to get a wife that wouldn't insist on throwing any of the family out. He knew Charlotte was Lizzie's friend and therefore would look kindly on his relations when the time came.

On another note, I re read Persuasion not too long ago. I am completely on Lady Russell's side about Anne's first engagement to Wentworth. She was right to persuade her to break it off.

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

Possibly a bit off topic, but I wondered about the entail - specifically why Lady Catherine de Bourgh doesn't have to give up her estate as her husband is dead.

Would entails have been a general thing in law, or in the Bennett's case was it that the will specifically stated that the estate could only be passed on to sons?

But surely if you leave an estate to someone in your will, they can then pass it on to who they like?

And if there had been no surviving male relatives, what then?

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but does anyone know the particulars?

I always assumed that Rosings had been Lady Catherine's father's estate and she'd married the cousin who was set to inherit it.

We know she had a sister in Lady Darcy, and we can assume Colonel Fitzwilliam was a cousin through another sister (perhaps the youngest). It could be that when Lady Catherine had no sons they were able to break any entail as her daughter is described as an heiress.

It would explain why Lady Darcy and Lady Catherine were so keen to marry their children. It would keep Rosings in the family and add Pemberly to it.

My theory falls down a bit in that Fitzwilliam is also Darcy's first name which suggests it was his mother's maiden name, which would mean Colonal Fitzwilliam is their brothers son ...

Absolutely Charlotte made the right choice. Even if you think Mr Collins is an awful bore there is no comparison between the life she had with him and the life she would have had without him.

Like others on the thread I have realised that I have a lot more in common with Charlotte than any of the Bennetts. In fact, I think I always knew that. Much as I would have loved to have been like Lizzie, the world is made up of more people who are a bit plain, and who don’t have fine eyes and a sparkling wit.

In terms of the TV/films. I love the BBC one and the Joe Wright version. I especially liked the portrayal of Mrs B and Charlotte in the film.
Mrs B is far more sympathetic, and is actually seen as quite pragmatic. She had 5 daughters (and herself) to save from destitution and a husband who is charming and a bit bloody useless.

Mr Bennett is a bit of an ass. He leaves all practical planning for his daughters to his wife, but then just sits back and laughs at her. The Lydia situation does shake him to his core, but does it change him?

From my reading of historical novels, breaking an entail legally was possible, but cripplingly expensive. The Bennets would have nowhere near enough coin to do it.

Without an entail, I assumed that Lady Catherine would hold Rosings in her own right and on behalf of her daughter. Then whoever she married would hold both, de facto. I don't think there was any evidence that women couldn't hold land legally where it wasn't entailed on male heirs.

I agree that Mr Collins was trying, in his own way, to do the decent thing. He came to marry a Bennet sister to prevent them being thrown out by the entail, and it's only after he strikes out twice that he turns his attention to Charlotte. Perhaps Mrs B should have encouraged him to look to Mary, but Mrs B clearly thought Mary was unmarriageable.

Mrs B wasn't quick enough where Mary was concerned. He went to the Lucas's to tend to his wounds and when he returned to Longbourne he was engaged! If she had had an inkling of what was going to happen then she would never have let him leave!

I don't agree that Mr Collins proposed to Charlotte out of spite.

What prompts him to seek a wife in the first place is that Lady Catherine tells him to - and specifies the type of wife. A gentlewoman (obviously) but not someone 'brought up high'. Presumably Collins knows enough of the Bennets' circumstances to feel that the daughters will fit this description and, with the entail situation, he knows he has something to offer that will improve his chances of success.

He's warned off Jane and then rejected by Lizzie - it isn't surprising that his next attempt is outside the family (and Mary who would be next in line, is plain). Charlotte has already spied an opportunity and has been encouraging to him. He's determined to go home with a wife, so she's a natural choice.

Thanks BlackAmericanoNoSugar and Deadringer it's an interesting history lesson.
I only saw the BBC version for the first time a few months ago and quite liked it, so have just started reading the book.

Now if only I could get my hands on a few of those dresses!

Lady Catherine presumably had a brother, the Earl, who was Col Fitwilliam's father. I am fairly certain Rosings was her husband's, it was modern iirc, and relatively new.

Lady CdB, in her characteristically insufferable way, holds forth on the subject of entails, how foolish it was of the Bennett family to have one and how her own far superior family has never believed in them- fortunately for Anne dB.

Jane Austen’s brother had to change his name in relation for patronage by a wealthier family member, so it does seem likely that something of the sort had happened at some stage in the Bennett/Collins family tree, perhaps to Mr Collins’ father or grandfather.
The alternative might be that the entail can pass down the female line but must be held by a man.

Breaking the entail would have been doable if the heir agrees, ie if Bennett’s had a cooperative adult son. Without one it would be almost impossible (unless Mr Collins had happened to be a benevolent millionaire and agreed).

If there are any Antonia Forest fans here, Trennels is entailed, hence it passes to Geoff Marlow when Cousin John dies. The estate has to go to the male 'nearest the direct line' and can't be sold.

I'm fairly convinced that if Mr. Collins was in a book today he would be autistic.

I think pps might be giving Mr Collins a bit too much credit. He did go to Longbourne to choose a wife, and yes he was partly motivated by doing the right thing. Keeping property in a family was very much the done thing, and if he was to be the cause of them having to quit their home he would have a moral obligation to take care of them, especially as a clergy man. Marrying one of them was the simplest way to satisfy protocol, and he knew that they were regarded as a family of beauties, so he had nothing to lose. It is unlikely that he would have chosen Jane if she was plain, he thought too highly of himself for that. I doubt he would have settled for Mary, and it's unlikely that Lady Catherine would have been pleased if he had. Mary is plain and gauche, and far too fond of her own opinions. Charlotte is plain, yes, but she is sensible and competent, and 'knows her place' and he didn't really choose her, he was flattered by her attention and interest after his astonishing (to him) rejection by Lizzy.

@Comefromaway

I'm fairly convinced that if Mr. Collins was in a book today he would be autistic.

I don't get that vibe from him at all. Mary, on the other hand, clearly has struggles with social cues and has quite rigid thought processes.

We know how the Darcys have aged...

I read The Other Bennett Sister last night on the strength of this thread - fantastic book. Mary is now my favourite Bennett girl.

@DukeofEarlGrey

The Clergyman's Wife by Molly Greeley which came out last year follows Charlotte Collins in her marriage (Mary also makes an appearance IIRC) and finds someone who makes her heart flutter.

I was always a bit surprised that Mr Collins didn't want to marry someone with a better dowry. I'm not convinced that Mr. Bennett will leave the estate in a financially sound way. He seemed to spend his time reading in his library rather than managing his finances well.

@Comefromaway

I'm fairly convinced that if Mr. Collins was in a book today he would be autistic.

I think that about Darcy.

@SapatSea I think Mr Collins was quite confident of his future and felt he didn't need it ... or had a feeling that a woman with more money (even a plain one) might not take him.

I'm sure it mentioned that Lady Catherine had other livings in her gift. I expect he was gunning for one of those to increase his income. As he has a profession, when Longbourne became him, he could take possession or rent it before enjoying his retirement in the country. Ideally I expect with a son or two placed in his current living(s)

Somehow I suspect that our spammer is not a Jane Austen fan and has not read the thread.

@GolfEchoRomeoTangoIndia

Lady CdB, in her characteristically insufferable way, holds forth on the subject of entails, how foolish it was of the Bennett family to have one and how her own far superior family has never believed in them- fortunately for Anne dB.

Jane Austen’s brother had to change his name in relation for patronage by a wealthier family member, so it does seem likely that something of the sort had happened at some stage in the Bennett/Collins family tree, perhaps to Mr Collins’ father or grandfather.
The alternative might be that the entail can pass down the female line but must be held by a man.

Breaking the entail would have been doable if the heir agrees, ie if Bennett’s had a cooperative adult son. Without one it would be almost impossible (unless Mr Collins had happened to be a benevolent millionaire and agreed).

Possibly the name change was the source of the disagreement between their fathers. It's quite possible that she forgot to put that in, or that it was edited out.

Frank Churchill changed his name for similar reasons, though tactfully signed himself 'Weston-Churchill' when writing to his father.

@FlumpyPoodle I agree Mr Darcy would be autistic these days. Strong adherence to the rules, enforcing them on everyone because rules are meant to be followed. He doesn't mean to be rude as such - he's following the social rules he learnt as a child, plus he can't approach strangers.

When Lizzie teaches him a better set of rules he learns them thoroughly and follows them instead.

(All of my family are ASD)

@GolfEchoRomeoTangoIndia

Lady CdB, in her characteristically insufferable way, holds forth on the subject of entails, how foolish it was of the Bennett family to have one and how her own far superior family has never believed in them- fortunately for Anne dB.

Jane Austen’s brother had to change his name in relation for patronage by a wealthier family member, so it does seem likely that something of the sort had happened at some stage in the Bennett/Collins family tree, perhaps to Mr Collins’ father or grandfather.
The alternative might be that the entail can pass down the female line but must be held by a man.

Breaking the entail would have been doable if the heir agrees, ie if Bennett’s had a cooperative adult son. Without one it would be almost impossible (unless Mr Collins had happened to be a benevolent millionaire and agreed).

I don't think it's the case that the entail could go down the female line but need to held by a man because it's completely certain that Mr Collins will inherit. If it could go down the female line then they would be hoping that one of the five daughters would marry and have a son.