The older I get the less bad I think the Collins' marriage in Pride and Prejudice is

[BlackAmericanoNoSugar]

When I first read P&P as a teenager I was very caught up in the hatred to love romance of Lizzie and Darcy. I'm still a sucker for that sort of story arc. For a long time I thought Charlotte was cheated of a happy ending, I thought she deserved much better than Mr Collins. I still think that she deserved better but now that I'm much older I can see that it isn't an unhappy ending either.

I still wouldn't want Mr Collins for myself but I've been listening to Dr Octavia Cox on YouTube (she's great) on various aspects of Jane Austen's books and when she was talking about the nature of marriage and Austen's examples of good and bad marriages it helped to make it clear that, actually, Charlotte could have had a very much worse story arc.

Mr Collins, for all that he's annoying, isn't a bad husband. He clearly respects and listens to Charlotte, he allows her to direct him in a way that makes the marriage comfortable. For instance, she encourages him to work in the garden for his health, and he does. She has a lot of freedom to run the household to suit herself. I can't think of anywhere in the book that Mr Collins is rude or unappreciative of Charlotte, certainly not in the way the Mr Bennett often talks down to or is dismissive of Mrs Bennett. Mr Collins clearly feels that he chose his wife well, he likes his wife's family and gets along well with his father-in-law. She fits the advice of Lady Catherine, useful sort of woman and genteel enough to be in high-level company.

While she misses out on true love, there are lots of ways it could have been so much worse for Charlotte who didn't have good looks or a large dowry. She also seemed to have passive parents, for all that Mrs Bennett is a bit crude and pushy she is at least striving to get her daughters well-settled, Charlotte's parents don't seem all that bothered about her future. It would have been uncomfortable to be a spinster and reliant on her brothers for her whole life. She also might have ended up with a husband with a vice, eg abusive, a womaniser, a gambler, an alcoholic.

I think Charlotte made an excellent decision and always have. For her circumstances he was an excellent match who she had a clear plan how to manage.

When I was listening to Octavia Cox she said something that had never occurred to me before, but that made perfect sense. She said that Mr Collins and Sir William were essentially the same personality and that's why Charlotte was so deft at managing Mr Collins, because she'd had a lifetime of practise already. They were both garrulous and sociable, both fond of giving their opinion, both very impressed with people of higher social status and both liked to show off.

If you haven't read it Longbourne (P and P told from the servants perspective) is absolutely brilliant. It very cleverly shows what a good match in the standards of the time Charlotte made.

The comment about Mr Collins and Sir William being similar personalities is brilliant and very true!

Completely agree with the OP.
The thread title leapt out at me and made me laugh because it suggests a lifetime of gradually accommodating to a kind of tolerant despair about men, finally recognising that a nice house and, as I recall, chickens is a sensible upper limit to our marital aspirations.

I think there were chickens anyway. I think they were a nice touch that made me seriously wonder whether Lizzy hadn't made a terrible mistake in turning Mr Collins down.

Possibly a bit off topic, but I wondered about the entail - specifically why Lady Catherine de Bourgh doesn't have to give up her estate as her husband is dead.

Would entails have been a general thing in law, or in the Bennett's case was it that the will specifically stated that the estate could only be passed on to sons?

But surely if you leave an estate to someone in your will, they can then pass it on to who they like?

And if there had been no surviving male relatives, what then?

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but does anyone know the particulars?

I think if Lady Catherine had had a son then he probably would have inherited the estate, but Lady Catherine would still have lived there although she might have moved to a dower house when her son married.

Not all land was entailed, if Lady Catherine's late husband had bought his estate or if he had inherited it without an entail then it was his to leave as he wished. Lady Catherine's husband wasn't aristocracy, her title comes from her father, so he might have been relatively 'new' money thus not having an entail.

Often the reason for an entail was to keep the land and the title together, the title always went down the male line so the land had to too. Obviously that wasn't the case for the Bennets as there was no title, but some ancestor perhaps felt strongly that Longborn should be kept together and not sold off or split up between descendants and so put an entail on the inheritance.

Jesus the bar is set so low on MN. Not a violent addict, let’s rush up that male up the aisle tonight.

That aside, I always thought Mr Collins was a screaming bottom, as my trans friend calls that type. His fascination with Lady Catherine is a hallmark, as is his equally remarkable lack of attraction to any of the hot Bennett sisters. He’s obsessed with interiors and a howling snob.

He’s meant to be a heavy price to pay for a roof over a person’s head - Charlotte pays it. The gay side is her blessed relief and her compensation - he won’t be unfaithful and he’s not bad natured.

Mr Bennet can't will Longbourne to anyone because it's only his while he is alive, he can't sell it either. Somewhere along the line an ancestor decided that only males could inherit, and made that a condition of inheriting, it's possible that Mr Bennet could have received the estate in the same way, by default. I think entails were fairly common, because any property left to females became their husband's, and if there was more than one daughter the estate would have to be sold and split between them. I don't know what would happen if no male heirs could be found though.

Good strategy, but day to day… living with Mr Collins?! God no!! The cringe, he’d be so annoying, I can’t imagine someone like that would allow you personal space when he’s so keen to drone on about himself. No thanks!

I often wonder if the entail is the reason why Mr Bennet fell out with Mr Collins' father, perhaps the estate was in his family's possession and they had to hand it over to Mr Bennet because he was the elder of the two cousins.

Brilliant thread. I’ve enjoyed reading these commends. I always thought Charlotte was very smart to marry a harmless idiot whose ear she had.

@FlumpyPoodle

To be fair if he looked like Tom Hollander it wouldn't be too awful. If he looked like the David Bamber Mr Collins though...

My sister was at university with Tom and had to kiss him in a play, I didn't see the play but I did watch some rehearsals!

There's very little detail about Mr Collins in the book. No mention of family at all. But his father must be dead because otherwise his father would be before him in the line to inherit Longborn. His mother is probably dead too otherwise she would probably be living with him as he's the eldest (possibly only) son. He seems to have money as he can afford to live well and travel to visit the Bennets, possibly inherited from his parents. He obviously has some influential connections as he's only just been ordained but has been given a nice, cushy parish. He ought to have the surname Bennet as it's a direct male line between him and Mr Bennet. I wonder if he might have been orphaned young and taken in by a family of a higher status than him, possibly on his Mother's side. He might have changed name to fit in better and developed a fawning nature for fear that they might turn him out.

I think we would call the entail a property trust now - Mr Bennet never really owned it but had the use and the income. I doubt you could run one for as long these days though.

I think in Mr Collins's inital letter it referenced the brothers (his uncle and dather) not getting on and him now wanting to make amends which suggested his father was recently dead.

Am I the only one who hated Longbourne?! I was so disappointed by it.

Where did the £2000 a year come from (how was it funded?) and how long was that to go on for?

That aside, I always thought Mr Collins was a screaming bottom, as my trans friend calls that type.

Oh absolutely Sure at least it'd keep him quiet for a bit.

Mr Collins was a bore but at least he wasn't a groomer like Mr Knightley. There are worse candidates to be married to.

Here we are. I don't know why he had the wrong surname though.

Mr Collins Sr was a cousin of Mr Bennett’s, and Mr Collins Jr was described as a distant cousin of Elizabeth’s. So different surname is pretty normal.

I completely disagree- it sounded like a pretty loveless marriage to me. He only proposed to her out of spite to make Lizzie jealous and Charlotte only accepted because she is portrayed as being plain and a bit of a ‘left on the shelf’ type who longed for a fairly wealthy husband.

To me Collins is a brash, arrogant character obsessed with people with money (Lady Catherine de Burgh) and bragging about his own wealth and land to anyone who would be willing listen. During Lizzie’s visit Charlotte seems pretty happy about how little she has to see him as she has her own separate rooms in the house! Doesn’t sound like a very ideal marriage to me.

Also, not relevant to this thread but I hated how Collins wrote to Lizzie’s dad condemning Lydia and basically telling them the family should never see her again- it made me so angry! Eugh, I hated Collins.

@MotionActivatedDog

Mr Collins Sr was a cousin of Mr Bennett’s, and Mr Collins Jr was described as a distant cousin of Elizabeth’s. So different surname is pretty normal.

You are right- I had forgotten that. I should have read the section properly instead of only looking for the bit I wanted!

At least you knew what you were getting with Mr Collins. I bet once the initial attraction wore off Mr Darcy would have been back to being an insufferable snob. I think all the male characters in p & p were bloody awful, especially Mr Bennet who did nothing to protect his daughters from an uncertain and miserable future.

You get a different surname when the family connection is through a woman, but they are connected by the male line only so should have the same surname.

Tom Hollander's Collins seems much more socially awkward and lacking in confidence and expectation than David Bamber's version. He wouldn't be so bad to be married to, I think. I found myself feeling sorry for him, in a way I didn't for the book/Bamber versions. In the dinner scene, it felt very much as if the family were making fun of an uncomfortable guest. I was on his side, for the first time.

Proposals, if anyone wants a look:

Collins is awful, a puffed up, creeping, hypocritical, snob. Most women wouldn't touch him with a bargepole. But Charlotte wasn't looking for love or romance, she didn't think much of men in general, or Collins in particular, he was a means to an end. She wanted a comfortable home with a decent income, and a man she could manage and manipulate if necessary. She got exactly what she bargained for.