Morbidly obese but can't stick to diet.

[LEIGH350]

I weigh 25 stone and am almost 60. I have been trying to diet 40 yrs. Sometimes I have lost a stone or two, then I give up, eat normally again, and regain.

It's obvious that I have a slow metabolism but I think that just means I should eat even less and less until I find an intake that causes weight loss.

Despite being pretty much under attack from society 24/7/365, I still don't seem to be able to make myself stick to any diet. It's like there are two of me: the dieter and the rebel, and the rebel always wins.

I am currently supposed to be on Atkins. I keep to it at every meal, but then, whenever I have the impulse to cheat, I pop out (my street has shops) and grab a family sized bag of crisps, a giant bar of chocolate, or a litre of ice cream.

Afterwards I hate myself, feel a failure, sob in bed at night and make plans to re-start tomorrow and be REALLY good, no cheats THIS TIME. All night every night I play MP3s - hypnosis to make you stick to your diet, or hypnotic gastric band. But the next day I cheat.

When I was calorie counting and logging on MFP I allowed myself a treat size chocolate bar every day. I bought a bag of 12 with the intention of having one a day, the whole lot was eaten in 2 hours, so now I never keep treats in the house.

Why do I cheat? I honestly don't know, even after all these years. In the last ten years I have had three lots of eating disorder counselling, lasting about a year each time, trying to get to the bottom of it. None of this has worked.

I resent being told that I must eat only for fuel, whilst everyone around me is using food for pleasure and entertainment ("hey - let's go for a pizza!" and "break open the bubbly!" "ooh, cream cakes - yum!") Friends recount how they enjoyed the eat-all-you-like buffet they had on holiday or at a local Indian (things I never do) then tell me I have to stop overeating. I seethe when I look into the windows of pubs, cafes, restaurants, and see slim people scoffing cakes, pizzas, hot chocolate, muffins, McD's, fry-up breakfasts; I am cross when I see them buying cakes in Gregg's and eating chips in the street, because if I did that I am labelled "naughty" or told I have an eating disorder.

It's taken me ages to realise that it's not what I eat that is the problem. From observing close up the eating habits of my flatmates and friends who come to stay, I don't eat more than the average person. It's the effect it has on my body: clearly, I am still eating too many treats for my particular slow metabolism.

My GP says "lose weight or die young". I've had the same from everyone in my life for the past 30 years and some of them are getting really pissed off with me because they don't think I am taking their advice.

All my stats like BP, cholesterol, etc are good and I am not diabetic. I take no medication. Ironically, many of the slim people who issue these dire warnings to me about my health are themselves on insulin, statins, BP pills, etc, and some who used years ago to warn me about how I was cutting my life short by being overweight have since died of various illnesses, at ages younger than I am now.

GP has made an appt for me to begin the long series of meetings and consultations that lead to a gastric bypass. First appt is in a week.

I have read about this and it is a barbaric mutilation. I have read about several women who died of starvation afterwards. I don't have any digestive issues. Having a bypass causes chronic problems for the rest of life (reflux, vomiting, diarrhoea, constipation, indigestion, malnutrition). Even if I came out of surgery OK, the thought of never being able to eat a proper meal again for the rest of my life (bypass is irreversible) makes me feel I would rather die young but enjoy my food.

My basic diet is healthy, currently two big bowls of salad a day with mayonnaise and some kind of meat or fish or seafood on top. No sugar, and no wheat. I am also teetotal and I never touch fizzy drinks or sweeteners. But then I ruin it all by having "impulse treats": either sugary (ice cream), wheaty (cake or chocolate biscuits), or a family bag of crisps. I do not keep any of these things in the house - ever. I HAVE to go out and buy them.

Each day I get up with the intention to just have the healthy meals and not to give in to the cheating impulse. Probably 4 days out of 7 I fail.

After 40 years I still cannot work out why I am self-sabotaging my every effort to diet. Especially as I now cannot walk more than 50 metres, get upstairs, and my world has become extremely restricted as I cannot fit into cinema, plane seats etc. Predictably, I am still single. (Yes there are specialist dating sites for men who like obese women but they are fetishists who would sabotage a woman's attempts at dieting.)

I am literally making myself disabled, and un-dateable and I don't know why.

I want to live a normal life, get about and have holidays and a great love life, and yet why oh why isn't even all that proving to be an incentive to stop cheating? I want to live again, but it's like I am not prepared to pay the price of constant deprivation.

I am not sure if this is far too complex an issue for a dieting board made up of people who are just a little bit podgy from baby-weight, but I post in the hope that there is someone else out there who feels the same or is in the same position or has some advice on how to escape from this self-imposed prison.

Another fellow sufferer here, with another book recommendation. Covers rebelling, too. Just who are we rebelling against? www.eatingless.com

I'm sure in therapy it's come up that you're eating because your parents were absent (physically/emotionally) . You were never filled up with enough love for you to feel completely secure with them, and in yourself. To feel ok as 'you'.

It's incredibly difficult to counteract this feeling and to be able to process the anger around those feelings as an adult. Inside is still that child that doesn't feel ok or validated. Becoming overweight feeds into that feeling as society then joins in, abusing and discriminating against the overweight.

Bobbit - "So it's really about the trigger areas, late at night when the day is over?"

No; I've never binged after dinner, which is about 6pm (the local shops are closed by then, anyway).

The binges always happen daytimes. I have my breakfast, and then I fancy something and it's a matter of whether I give in or I don't.

If I leave the house, I am doomed. Half the time, I can't get past the local shop without going in for binge-junk. If I go to town I almost always buy cream cakes or cookies, so I avoid going, or I cross the road to avoid walking past the bakery. I've even tried going out without any cash, only to find every shop now takes debit cards!

You need to do 'something ' (don't know what yet) in ^^ that space. The space between breakfast and the next thing you have planned.

What are the thoughts in that space? Are you still hungry? Are you sad or angry? Are you worried about what you're about to do next and are putting that thought off by focusing on eating?

Life is a series of spaces and when we do things negative or unfulfilling in them there's a thought or a feeling behind it. We need to find a way to redirect that compulsion, tell yourself you're ok ( as you sound grimly panicked in that moment?) and move to the next thing.

Eolian, I think there is a misunderstanding here. I mentally separate my "good basic diet" from my "junk-binge" foods not as some kind of "fooling myself" (or anyone else) but because they ARE two distinct and separate entities.

The "basic diet" is the one I wish to retain. It's the one that is nutritionally sound and contains no sugar, no wheat, no junky convenience foods. It ought to be enough.

The "junk-binge" things (I cannot really call them foods") are totally separate as this is what I need to eliminate completely (OK maybe a small cake on my birthday!) They are keeping me fat and probably fuelling the craving the following day.

There is no "fooling" going on here -- I am being 100% honest to myself, you, and everyone. No point in being otherwise.

Half the days of the week I am eating only my "basic diet".

nutritionally sound and contains no sugar, no wheat

That's too black and white, genuinely that's not the way the world eats unless you've got Crohns or some other limited diet for medical reasons. In human history we have never eaten like that. The fact that magazines/media/faddy nutrition experts are pushing us towards the above is part of the problem.

I totally understand why you've developed such strong boundaries around good and bad food. But it will (maybe has) become part of the disorder.

I get what you're saying, OP, but being so strict about what's allowed in your 'basic diet' is surely counter-productive and pointless if you are still eating all the junky things. Eliminating all wheat and sugar from your meals is not necessary unless you have an intolerance. Depriving yourself entirely of those things is bound to make you feel like bingeing on them at your weak moments.

Bobbit thank you.

"You need to do 'something ' (don't know what yet) in ^^ that space. The space between breakfast and the next thing you have planned."

If I can get to 6pm I am "safe". Sometimes I look at the clock and see it's 5.50pm and I think, "you have ten minutes left if you are going to binge..." Then I do something else, and the next time I look it's 6:01 and I breathe a sigh of relief. Occasionally at that point I'll ring for a Chinese and binge on that, maybe 3 or 4 times a year.

"What are the thoughts in that space? Are you still hungry? Are you sad or angry? Are you worried about what you're about to do next and are putting that thought off by focusing on eating?"

Definitely not hungry.

My job is stress free and full of joyful things. It's rare that I have to tackle anyone awkward, and the binges are not related to those occasions. It feels more like I want/deserve/need a "treat". I'll binge after good news, too, or no news, or fancy a "pick-me-up".

When you are in the shop, what stops you from just buying one mars bar or whatever? Which would be less than ideal, but good progress towards breaking the habit. Why don't you do that?

I sympathise OP. Have you looked into Whole30?

So a binge/ mini binge is a reaction to life happening? - any life, good or bad news.

I know this could be something to work out with a skilled therapist. Not cbt, but a skilled psychotherapist who specialises in eating disorders. Your issues are probably stemming from what you said earlier about your parents and about the lack of different nurture to food.

I think you've developed disordered eating to cope with life. Just like an addict.

Group therapy, over eaters anonymous might help. I appreciate you've tried therapy before 3 times but your issues are ingrained for 60 years, you know no other language of nurture apart from food. This needs to be unravelled and broken for you to live differently

You could be my sister. ! Dsis had the exact same 'lack of off button' for unhealthy high sugar food. Her diet 'main' diet was very healthy. Three good clean low sugar healthy fats meals a day , but then she would sabotage her own efforts with crap. Her children and husband are all slim, they eat the food she provided and didn't need anymore. The moment they weren't looking she would pile in the sugary carb laden rubbishy until she was morbidly obese and so unhappy with her appearance that she stopped socialising.
On the 1st August this year she had a gastric bypass. She has lost nearly 2 stone in 7 weeks. Her knees no longer make her cry in pain. She can put her own shoes on and tie them up. She has had absolutely no bad side effects. She ewent to all the appointments - most importantly she went to all the psychology assessments and begun to learn about her own individual relationship with food. I attended reunions for post surgery (bypass not band) patients to speak to people considering it. The last one had 40+ people there. No one had had any issues except 'dumping' syndrome if they eat crap. - it's painful - so they don't eat crap anymore.
Bypass IS reversible. There were people there who had op 10 + yrs ago and have remained thin. Not just those a year or two out.
Read up, don't just believe the sensationalist press. If invasive surgery was not the best most effective way to lose weight, keep it of f and thereby keep you healthy and not dead early, then the NHS would not waste precious money funding it. Put simply it works . It works very very well and best of all DSIS hasn't been hungry once and wished she had done it 8 years ago when younger then she wouldn't need to spend so much time at the gym helping her skin ping back !

The sugar and wheat thing isn't me following the latest fad in a magazine :-)

Sugar is unnecessary to human health or nutrition. By common consenus of all health experts it is know to cause cravings, de-stabilise blood-glucose, cause diabetes and many other bad effects. I feel proud that I have been able to eliminate all sugar from my "basic diet" and so my intake is nil for at least half of every week. I would not want to re-introduce it as it serves no purpose.

The wheat is a different thing. I makes my joints hurt. Eliminating it has the good side effect of putting pizza, pies, cakes, biscuits etc on the banned list, which is a good thing, surely? Even if I binge half the week, I still am wheat-free for 4 or 5 days every week (because 2/3 of my binges don't contain wheat).

When I did calorie counting I relied very heavily on sandwiches which I found very filling at minimal calories, but my knees hurt so much I could barely stand.

I don't disagree at all with your analysis of actual sugar and wheat. I just think in reality not eating them at all is quite hard and a bit of a niche sport.

You have enough issues around food without trying to 'perfect ' your diet, though I do understand you feel better physically without wheat.

I'm genuinely not saying you're wrong, it's just that you're making it pretty hard for yourself trying it. And obviously a part of you is getting really pissed off at your efforts, cos that part is eating mars bars and tiger bread 3 days a week.

George: "When you are in the shop, what stops you from just buying one mars bar or whatever?"

I have asked myself this a thousand times. I still don't know the answer. I can only speculate. If I am in the sweetshop, I would not buy more than one Mars. I would buy a selection of different bars. Three or four, generally. I would then have a ritual: cup of tea, feet up, and eat them one by one, and then hide the wrappers deep under the other bin rubbish.

The last time I did this, it was Magnum ice cream-on-a-stick thingies. There were three varieties and I had one of each. It didn't even occur to me to choose one. I think in my head I "justify" this multiple-buying by saying, 'well, I don't have ice cream every day, so I am "allowed" to have a really extraordinary treat'. This is, of course, madness.

You could try playing around with that pattern by saying out loud to yourself "I'm going to eat ice cream and a chocolate bar every day". And I mean out loud, like an affirmation. What you say will then directly challenge your belief that you're not allowed them.

If you force yourself to go to the shop and buy a magnum and a mars bar every day that's only 600 calories coming from 'bad' food. If you then eat all the other food you like you will still lose weight (for a while as you're 25 stone). At some point the 600 calories will be too high.

Is it possible the having to eat all in the pack etc. is a kind of OCD?

MarilynsBigSister thank you for your post.

I suppose I am still clinging to the idea that I "ought" to be able to restrict my food intake myself. Surgery terrifies me.

Also, I can well imagine myself liquidising ice cream to get my binge-fix.

Bobbit funnily enough I don't find it hard at all not to eat wheat or sugar with my "proper" basic meals. On my non-binge days I have zero wheat and zero sugar and I don't crave or miss them. And yet, yes, these are the things I often binge on. (I know that sounds crazy.) But if I binge on crisps, which are neither sugar nor wheat, that satisfies me.

It makes me think that this isn't about getting a sugar or wheat fix but just that "naughty" foods happen by coincidence to be made of sugar or wheat. I never binge on sugar in the form of sweets or cola - only ever on chocolate, and that has to be specific types, too. (You can leave me in a room for a month with a bar of Bournville and I won't touch it!) And I never binge on bread or rolls, croissants or pies, only specific cream cakes and specific biscuits.

I know it's weird. It's more a case of compulsive behaviour rather than a search for wheat or sugar.

I suffered from anorexica which spiralled into bulimia so somewhat different to you, but the way you describe your binges strike a chord with me.

I remember having this insane rage inside me and I just had to stuff food in to shut it up. It was a physical feeling, I would feel shakey, desperate and couldn't satisfy it fast enough. Equally I also had my rituals.

I have had a lot of therapy and that was what helped.

I haven't read all the replies but I would suggest you look into help again; I know you've had it but perhaps you haven't found the right therapist yet?

It took me several goes to find one I clicked with but I can honestly say she probably saved my life; either from the effects of binging and vomiting 8-10 times a day or through suciide because I saw no way out.

I'm a trainee psychotherapist now so just a few things that stick out to me from your posts;

• this isn't about food. You can try and diet all you like but unless you fix what's going on inside, you will self sabotage.
• This is a big change; what about this change is frightening you?

For me, I was at my worst after my
Mum died, my fiancée left me and 2 of
My horses died within 12 months. It was easier to think about food and binging than it was to deal with all that.

Finally; have you ever tried just eating what you want? Literally, with no restriction? And I don't mean for just a week until you start a new diet, but for good?

That is what I had to accept and do for my eating to get under control again. I was never overweight but due to the prior anorexia, this was a terrifying concept for me. And I gained fast. Eventually it levelled out and then I naturally lost weight, still eating what I want because I wasn't binging anymore.

Just my two cents

"I want to live again, but it's like I am not prepared to pay the price of constant deprivation."

It's that phrase CONSTANT deprivation that really stands out to me. If you really are constantly feeling deprived, of course you're going to "rebel" and so the self-sabotage cycle is never-ending.

I'm not a psychologist but if you can relax your ideas about food good / bad, "junk", and enjoy what you put in your mouth, there wouldn't be the feeling of deprivation, driving you on to get to the shop before it closes.

Is there a sense in which you don't feel like you "deserve" to enjoy your food?

The other phrase that stands out to me is the "I want to live again" - it sounds like you have a pretty fab life, apart from being very unhappy with your weight. Does it feel like life is passing you by? Or does it just feel like everyone ELSE is telling you to lose weight? Is it something you REALLY want to do for yourself?

Sorry so many questions! Good luck with it all - you sound at teh end of your tether right now. Quick recommendation if you can bear to read another "diet" book - Michael Moseley's 8 week blood sugar diet has worked wonders for me - changed my attitude towards "treats" - most of teh time.

Have you tried fasting? You need to be mentally tough so I like the challenge I just have cups of black tea on fast days then a nice dinner.

I was just coming on to say that I hope thefitfatty comments because her posts on threads like these are always the best (I think ) and I've seen that she has already!!

I think it's important you don't feel alone in this, and that no one is judging you. Those are my triggers and if I feel either one of those emotions I reach for the family sized dairy milk daim bar, which then sets of this vicious cycle.

You can do this, it's about finding what works for you. I fast 2-3 days a week as I'm a bit of an all or nothing eater, could you do this?

Another brilliant book is Jason vale freedom from the diet trap

Amanda. Yes, I think it is.

Whatever binge foods I have, I am compelled to eat everything till it is gone and then hide the evidence.

When I bought a pack of 12 treat bars of Ripple, I literally could not stop thinking about them, even though I was busy all day on an absorbing project. They kept "calling me" to the larder until they were all gone. It's like an obsessive "tidying-away". I feel jittery and uncomfortable all day until they are gone.

I know this is weird.

And yet I will leave worn clothes lying on top of bedroom chests, paperwork lying about my office, dirty cups in the lounge etc just like any normal person.

Only one tiny thing jumps out at me from your "base" diet. It's possible you're not counting all the calories from e.g. mayonnaise. Have you ever made mayonnaise? It's nearly all oil. Mayonnaise is scary stuff because it's got nearly as much fat as butter, but is easy and delicious to use in large quantities.

But as you've identified, the problem is the bingeing. I don't agree with the idea of buying "only one" Mars bar or having the "occasional" treat. I lost 6 or 7 stone after I developed diabetes. It was far easier to cut out treats by saying "I don't eat those things". Not "I can't", or "I shouldn't", but "I don't". It's my choice not to eat those things. This way I can sit next to someone eating a whole cake (DP still eats badly, binges etc. and is morbidly obese) and it genuinely doesn't bother me.

Because my diabetes meant that sugars and carbs had become something that, essentially, I am intolerant to, I ate a low-GL diet. Low glycaemic load differs from low glycaemic index in that you take account of the amount of carbs, not just the GI. I tested my blood sugar after different types of carbs, to work out how I personally reacted to different carbs (the official GI numbers are based on the average of a group of healthy young males). You could try this too - even non-diabetic people have different blood sugar responses to different foods, and a nice gentle blood sugar response is good. My example: porridge sent my blood sugar spiking up very fast, whereas muesli didn't (even though it had dried fruit in it).

When I'm not hungry, I don't eat. I choose to frame all these things as "don't", not "can't".

It's really hard, though, and without the kick up the arse of diabetes (in my twenties!) I'd have had real trouble. But you can do it! Interestingly, I wondered for years if I had a slow metabolism, but when I add up calories it seems I don't. Remember, the calories you need as you age decrease. It's normal to need fewer calories as a sixty-year-old than as a thirty-year-old. Are you comparing yourself to younger people?

Exercise can help, a tiny bit, but it's a very small component of the equation. I'm lucky in that after vigorous exercise (except swimming, oddly) I don't feel hungry for a bit. But don't focus on the exercise.

Another thing: don't focus on a goal weight that's miles and miles away. Think instead about the fact that at just one stone lighter, you will feel better and be healthier. Try and find something that weighs a stone and pick it up (or better, put it in a rucksack and wear it). Go for a stone, not ten. Screw what you look like. You'll still look fat. Make one stone your final goal. If you feel like you'd like to lose another stone, you can do that later. You just want to get one rucksack-full lighter, because that rucksack weighed a bloody ton when you had to cart it around with you.

Pay for everything with cash. Each bit of cash you get it and hand over represents some extra weight that you'll be putting on or not losing. Debit cards are the tool of the devil

The thing is, all these things are things that worked for me. You will be different.

The therapy is good. The emotional side and the screwed-up thinking is what got you fat.