What is going on with (some) kids?!

[Purpleturtle45]

I have been a primary school teacher for 20 years and I just cannot believe the decline in behaviour and attainment In that time!

Yesterday I witnessed a 6 year old kick, spit at, punch and threaten to kill the DHT and ultimately trash the room and the staff are powerless to stop it as they aren't allowed to touch a child. This is a daily occurrence.

So many children are disrespectful and will argue back to your face now and a lot of the parents are just accepting of this! I honestly fear for the world if this is what the kids are like!

Every teacher I know is looking to leave, they are being driven to breaking point every day! It's all so worrying.

My apologies, perhaps we were referring to two different threads. In the one I read this morning, the daughter was being bullied at school, which the school weren't dealing with. When the threats carried over into online, which meant the mother now had evidence to show the school, the school still refused to do anything, yet a number of posters criticised her for allowing her child access to a (fully supervised) messaging tool, failing to see that the tool wasn't the issue, it was bullying failing to be addressed in school that was the issue.

Sorry! Yes, I think we're referring to two different threads.

This reminds me of an incident I had at parents evening a year or so ago. Primary school so no children in the meeting. Parents are asked to please arrange separate childcare. Doesn't always happen. On this occassion, the parents left the children outside the classroom while they went in. Year 5 so to be fair, perfectly reasonable to expect them to be able to sit there for a bit. I was waiting.

Child started trying to push open the door a little to listen in. I told him to stop. He told me, ingdignantly, "You can't tell me what to do". I just laughed at him and suggested that then perhaps if he pushes the door hard enough, Mrs "Smith" would notice and does he want to have to answer to her?

But I think it's outrageous. When I was 10, ANY adult telling me not to do something, particularly something that I 100% knew I was not supposed to do, would have had me scuttling off instantly. And the scary thing is, there's a fairly decent chance that his parent would agree I had no right to tell him to stop.

Why aren’t they allowed to touch the child? I have been a primary HT and a DSL and I certainly would have done.

I am often weirdly grateful I grew up in a deprived area as kids today seem much better to me!

My brothers class was awful: eight of them ended up in reform school as it was then! This would have been in the 80s/early 90s.

Then has everybody forgotten the outcry over feral youths after James Bulger? And then there were the ABSOs prevalent in the early 2000s. The murders of Gary Newlove and Sophie Lancaster in 2007 and 2009?

It really, honestly is not a new problem.

Every time this topic comes up there is a rush of PPs who want to blame “mum’s going back to work” and “kids being in nursery too young”. Where is the data on this for these posters to be so sure? Where’s the proof? Otherwise it’s all anacdata - just as my experience of a well rounded, high achieving, mostly quite pleasant child who went to childcare from 9 months old(!) is only my experience.

I will start out by saying I have 2 DCs with autism. I have worked tirelessly to ensure that they never use their diagnosis to hurt anyone or disrupt other children's education. One day they will be adults in the world and they cannot just trash things and hurt people because they don't like something.
I had to quit my job as a TA due to constant attacks and no parent support. Parents genuinely seemed terrified to tell their child 'no', and if I was attacked I had 'obviously done something child didn't like'. This could be something as simple as asking child not to throw bottles of water over me or redirecting them from throwing chairs at the window. As long as the child hears their parent screaming at school staff that child can do what they want because they have SEN, it will never stop. I actually really fear for the future when we have thousands, if not millions, of adults completely unable to regulate their emotions and do anything that resembles work.

I think there may be more SEN/ND but also school environment are making some of those kids who used to cope not - group work busy loud and visually loud class rooms - my DC all found those hard and the decline in general class room behavior also affects them worse and first.

Parenting styles - it's not everyone but some areas and it's very noticable when we end up in them have many parents who do permissive wishy washy parenting and call it superior gentle parenting. They seem frighten to actually parent. They do tend to be one expecting everyone to smile indulgently at their child even when causing inconveience to others or behaving poorly.

I was also very shocked by the news item saying they'd reduce number of kids turning up not potty trained with a inromation campgign. My kids did really struggly - ND showing itself and everyone but me dismising it - but we tried. It honestly seemed parents hadn't realsie it was their job to actually do it and not the schools.

I'm also worry about screen use having seen newhew looking even slightly restless and having a screen shoved at him. My kids had screens but a lot of them were edcudational based activities and a parent was there with them.

Also think lack basic manners in wider society is also an increasing issue they are just copying.

Schools need to do better. Protect children from foul language and behaviour or close their doors.

Find a way to impose rules - call the parent, suspend. Safeguard the majority of the children.

What we have now is inadequate and I have been stressed every day since dc started school.

The problem is on societal level but schools need to do much more to keep it out of the school gates.

The difference was that parents still talked to their children when they were around. My parents both worked full time, but we had our dinner at the table as a family every evening. We were not blatantly ignored, the way many children are nowadays.

It’s a real worry.

last week in Argos I watched a mum and her c6-7 yo. The little boy was barefooted… shouting at the top of his voice. And walking around hitting people’s arms and trying to grab whatever they were carrying. I’m sure this little boy is on some sort of spectrum but there was no correction by the parent whatsoever 🤔🤷‍♀️ ! He was just allowed to roam around the store, unchecked and barefooted while grabbing and touching people.

I feel for my kids teachers tbh. Especially DS’s class teacher. She has a lot of challenging kids in his class and then on the other side of it she gets it in the neck from the parents of the kids they terrorise.

Screens and kids just being left to them.

In the 80s and 90s there were no smartphones or tablets.

Children's television was an hour or so mid morning for preschoolers and a couple of hours after school, not dedicated channels of endless content.

Parents weren't on laptops or phones because they simply didn't exist. Families had to be present in a way they don't now.

We have children with the attention span of a gnat due to being exposed to screens from babyhood. Who don't know social cues and manners because it's easier to give a child an iPad than to teach them to behave in public.

They don't know how to be bored. That's actually a pretty important thing to learn, how not to be constantly entertained or distracted.

I'm not blaming parents - we as a society had no idea how bad for children these new inventions would be. And the younger parents themselves free up with smart phones and tablets, thought it was normal.

Yet when they do so, the reaction is horrific. Have you seen the threads on here about strict schools? Many parents constantly complaining about rules and how rigid they are.

Ikr…remember when all we had to worry about was rap music causing all of our behavioral problems. Oh wait, was it rock and roll…

Every generation has something new to blame, whether screens, or music styles, or movies, computer games. It’s not these, it’s just bad parenting, and really entitled parents who make their child think they are more special than anyone else…haven’t you seen some of the nonsense parents on here spout about little Alex and Ava and how life is just too hard for them

@MoistVonL “I'm not blaming parents”

I’m blaming parents for blatantly ignoring their children and just not bothering to interact with them. There is no excuse for it.

Completely agree. I've got friends who've been primary teachers for nearly 30 years saying it's become so much worse recently.

Reading 'the Anxious Generation" about the damaging impact of social media on young people; the biggest impact came in 2012/2013 as parents started to give their teenagers their old phones and broadband became commonplace.

Over the last decade this has spread to toddlers but the impact is even more damaging as their brains haven't had a chance to fully develop and the nature of social media has changed to algorithm-generated 10 second short clips.

As adults we are addicts (how stressed do you feel if you go out without your phone?) Can we imagine how a small child feels who's never been without their phone?

I had a 90s childhood and we always ‘played out’ for hours after school and on weekends- fresh air, imagination, social interaction. Not relying on parents to provide entertainment. I don’t see it anywhere near as much anymore- children seem to do structured and planned activities and are carted everywhere in an SUV.

I don’t necessarily think parents are doing less because I definitely feel like parenting was less child-centred a few decades back- we had to fit in around what our parents were doing rather than the other way round! Yet somehow behaviour has got worse so it’s not working very well.

I agree with all of this.

But also @Sunnyduvet
I also think that some children exhibit quite early challenging behaviours and because of the way the world is now, instead of their parents looking after them and making sure they are around someone who understands them, making sure they get lots of outdoor play for example, they are put into before school and after school club and expected to behave. I think if a child is exhibiting early difficult behaviours then the best person to look after that child most (not all) of the time is the parents.

Life just doesn't work for parents and children nowadays. Lack of space, time, money, resources, mental bandwidth. Too many children being brought up by cash poor or time poor parents and living in inadequate accommodation. Too much fear and not enough love, affection and stability. Not because their parents don't love them, but because stress depletes our ability to actively demonstrate our love for our children in a way that nurtures and calms them.

Schools have a tough job but also they aren't set up to deal with the reality of life for many children nowadays. The curriculum is too narrow and there aren't enough staff or resources. There isn't enough space in many schools.

Especially in the early years, the focus should be on supervised, unstructured, outside play. Right up until ages 7 or 8. Completely screen free. The staff should help keep the children safe, resolve issues and help them build their social skills. Then, once they're calm and reception to learning, they should be called in (in small groups) for short, tailored bursts of learning. If they're unfocused or dysregulated, they should be sent back outside to play again until they're ready to focus. The emphasis should be on building self discipline, respect for others and relationships. But the reality is that this approach would be far too resource heavy for schools, and so they'll continue to fail to meet children's needs.

In the past, life was simpler, less frenetic and screen time was more limited. And teachers and parents often ruled with fear through shouting and physical punishments. So compliance was easier to secure... life was less complex for children and, if they weren't coping, fear of adults meant that they internalised this to a much greater extent. Hence a more orderly society.

This generation of parents actually spend much more time actively engaging with and entertaining their children than previous generations did.

The difference is that, when parents are busy or get tired, the phones and tablets come out rather than children being left in playpens when small or pushed out the door to 'play out' if bigger.

I also wonder about this and I think it's a combination of lots of things:

Firstly, there is a big focus on "child led" activities / parenting / education. For example the waiting until signs of "readiness" before potty training. Some fully child led play and learning is amazing - following your child's interests, helping them learn through play etc. But it's not everything. You also need to look at what skills does my child need to work on and how can I support them to do it. Yes, with play-based activities and fun and reward charts, but still with a focus on getting them to do stuff, including stuff they find really hard, by themselves.

Some children are naturally very independent and confident and driven to develop skills like dressing/writing/toileting by themselves because they really want to do it. And a very child led approach probably works well for them. But that's not every child. And if you have a child that needs a bit more of a push (proactive support if you like) to learn skills rather than having things done for them, then waiting for them to be ready is not going to help. I think waiting for readiness is also extremely unhelpful when dealing with anxiety, as this can just entrench patterns of avoidance and beliefs about not being able to cope. Now that's not to say just push an anxious child into situations they find overwhelming, but a child who is anxious does need support to learn to tolerate feelings of anxiety and to make the connection that worries and anxiety do not mean that they can't cope.

I think there are also issues with children with very significant additional needs being left to sink or swim without appropriate support in a mainstream setting. While inclusion is a great idea in principle, there are currently children in mainstream schools who are not coping and are not able to access the curriculum at all. And who end up causing such significant disruption that the entire class of children is getting stressed out and anxious.

A bit anecdotal but I have a relative who is a TA. She described how in a class with several children with additional needs, challenging behaviour and disruption from multiple children improved considerably when a child with very severe behavioural difficulties was absent for a few weeks. Without that child the classroom was calmer and the other children with additional needs were then better able to cope because they weren't constantly on edge and dysregulated because of the behaviour of one individual who despite everyone's best efforts just could not be appropriately supported in the classroom.

Finally, I do also think that parents needing to rely on poor quality childcare is not helping. When I went back to work after my DS was born it turned out that the nursery we had chosen (and had been on the list for since I was pregnant) was frankly a bit shit. High staff turnover, lots of unfamiliar faces in the baby room, poor processes for settling children, it was a nightmare. But then there were no other options because there were no other providers with space. So we were stuck there for ages and it was pants. He's now at a preschool setting which is great in terms of supporting all the children with their social/emotional/behavioural/academic development and preparing them well for the transition to school. But the "preschool room" in his daycare nursery is absolute chaos. The kids are often just running about, the adults are overwhelmed, there is very little attempt to help the children with independent skills like coats/gloves, toileting is badly supervised, and the play and activities can be really messy and stressful. So while a good nursery setting is really helpful and supportive, a bad one feels actively detrimental.

why do you think he was ND? Children dont' learn how to behave in a vacuum. It has to be taught. If the parent is not teachign the child to behave appropriately, then how will he learn?

I find this endlessly frustrating.

Children, animals etc - there's this weird idea that they should just learn without any desire to TEACH them. We have trained our cats not to wake us up early. Every time I go on Instagram and see people laughing about their cat waking them up at 5am I'm surprised. Every time SIL seems surprised when teachers tell her that her child doesn't have appropriate social skills - she has never ever, in his life, told him or showed him how to behave. Of course he has no social skills.

“This generation of parents actually spend much more time actively engaging with and entertaining their children than previous generations did.”

I see so many children in buggies or shopping trolleys with a phone or tablet. Parents are no longer talking to them. In restaurants, children are given a screen instead of their parents engaging with them. Talking to your children when out and about seems to be on the decline.

👏Agree so much with your post.