Sure teacher is lying, but can't prove it

[Chew33]

My 12 year old son received a detention (c2) for talking in class. He is usually as good as gold and gets great feedback, so this was very unusual. He said he got this with no verbal warning or c1, which is the procedure they're supposed to follow. He said she shouted c2 whilst pointing at him from across the room.
I challenged the procedure not being followed. The teacher emailed me in response with a completely different version of events. She said he'd had several warnings, then. C1 from her, then a c2 from the librarian! My son has admitted he was talking too much, but is adamant her version was no where near the truth. He even checked with one of the kids after the fact, who agreed.
I know when my kid lies. He goes bright red and its so obvious atm. I know he's telling the truth, and I'm disgusted how he's been treated. I think she just lost her temper and knows she did wrong. The detention itself was very short and never recorded in the system. He said she just said as this is your first strike and you're usually so good let's let this one go.

So I emailed back expressing i understood his talking was unacceptable, however I was very concerned about the difference in recalling events. She's doubled down and said her report is accurate.

Do I let this one go, or not? My gut is telling me she's definitely lying, but I don't know what to do or its worth pursuing further.

And this is one of the reasons teachers are leaving in droves.
Kid was talking, he admitted it, but mum can't let it go. Emailing the teacher, wasting her time. Teaching her kid that he's immune to consequences.

Pathetic parenting.

It is possible that the teacher is lying, didn't follow the correct procedure and your son does sound like a reasonably well behaved child most of the time BUT I wouldn't have pursued this with the school. He is secondary school age, it's time to back off and explain to him that in life you have to be discerning about the battles you fight and what you just suck up and get on with.

I don't see what possible difference it makes- the child was in the wrong, it was right that he be given detention- the OP freely admits this , so what possible difference could it make that the procedure wasn't follwed to the letter- get a grip and stop thinking of harassing the teacher.

Op, I used to teach beginner teachers about behaviour management.

let me talk you through the system at my school.

firstly, officially all kids were meant to be given a warning first before they got a detention.

but depending on the behaviour going straight to a detention was allowed.

fir example, imagine Freddie had brought a knife into school and had just killed Amelia who sat next to him.

should the teacher give a warning? “Freddie, you are not supposed to kill preople. This is your warning, if you kill anyone else in my class it’ll be a detention”.

no, this is clearly absurd.

I’m sure you can think of many other instances where a warning just isn’t appropriate - for example the child may be talking but what they are actually saying is eg “the teacher is a f’ing c word” etc in which case they don’t get a warning for talking they get a detention for swearing at the teacher.

now moving to look at cases where kids are talking, it is very very common for kids to get wrapped up in their own conversations and not even notice the whole class is staring at them wondering why they are broadcasting their whole conversatoon.

in one particularly funny occurrence two year 10 lads hadn’t noticed the whole class go silent except for them and we were all listening to their conversation about whose party they were going to on Saturday night. Honestly it was riveting.

They were very embarrassed when they realised literally everyone else in the room had shut up following my “5 4 3 2 1” and they hadn’t even noticed.

lots of kids again are given a warning but don’t realise it is a warning. If your kid is autistic this might be them,

so if the teacher says anything along the lines of
”next time it’s a detention”
”Johnnie you are disrupting the class be quiet”

etc this is a warning, they’ve had to speak specifically to your child about their behaviour,

now in practice my school was full of argumentative wotsits so we suggested to teachers that they stop the class, say to the kid “Johnnie this is your warning stop that now” simply so there were 30 witnesses and it was very very clear to Johnnie.

even then you’d get kids arguing with it.

so, in conclusion:

your kid was talking
you know he was talking

i wasn’t there you weren’t there so I don’t know if he got a warning but I’d put at least a fiver on that it did happen and he just either was so involved in his conversation he didn’t hear it at all OR he just didn’t process that being told to shut up is a warning and then he kept talking.

honestly, don’t take this further.

To any teachers reading this:

Dear Teachers
We appreciate everything you do. Thank you for teaching our children. Most of us really appreciate you and you're doing an excellent job, in often trying circumstances.
Love from
Most parents

I think you are missing the point. Your son has admitted talking in class and you are having a go at the teacher??

behave yourself, tell your son not to talk in class as it is rude and disrespectful to the teacher and please just move on.

What, since 10 o'clock last night, when you posted that the teacher has treated him in a disgusting way and your son never lies?
Fast!

Hear hear, from non parents too.

No. I did this when he came home Wednesday telling me he had a detention.

And then they'll wonder when the kid is further up the school why they're literally not doing well.

There's a shorthand teachers use (I'm a teacher): 'Parents supportive'. This means communicating with home is worth the effort. If you want us to think that your family is more effort than it's worth, then knock yourself out.

Every capable young person who's washed their GCSEs down the toilet has had an unsupportive parent in my experience.

OP: am I being unreasonable? Almost eveyone: yes you are being unreasonable. OP: No I'm not and I'm only going to listen to the 4 people who agree with me.

As mentioned already in this thread. At no point have I indicated to my child he shouldn't be punished. He attended the detention and was told off at home.

Thankyou.
Not just regarding this thread, but because everytime I spot "teacher" in a thread title my heart sinks a bit. Mumsnet has an active and dedicated teacher bashing brigade, and yeah, as a teacher just reading such threads can effect you, reflecting on how your day has been dominated by intensive communications about poor behaviour.
There are days when we simply cannot circumnavigate this and get on with educating the majority, but a supportive post like yours is worth gold to our inner strength.

What? Not the case as all. Been taking it all on board and have since sent an email to the teacher to apologise and assure we've spoken to child about his behaviour

My guess would be that the teacher spent hours and hours the previous evening, checking behaviour records and assessing which innocent babes she could attack so as to cause maximum trauma.

somewhere right now she is on Teachernet, boasting about how she has ruined little Tristan's chances of getting into Oxbridge.

I’d just put it down to experience and leave it. I don’t think teachers generally lie

Absolutely this. My siblings and I used to get detention every now and again and our mum never batted an eyelid. Half the time she didn't even know. She just assumed the teachers were doing their job. This was in the 70s however, when parents respected teachers and were not so adversarial.

Op, you’ve backtracked massively, talking about being tired, having a tough week and being Autistic. All of those things impact how you see very minor things like this experience for your son. Try giving the same respect to the teaching staff and allowing yourself reflection time if such situations arise again. You’re still trying to blame and excuse.

He didn't hear the warning as was too busy talking.
Stop showing yourself up and support his teachers
Wait til he is 15 and needing to study hard for gcses and has his class disrupted by the class clown... Then you will see why nipping this behaviour in the bud in y7 is needed

Hi @Chew33
I thought of ND straight away because I recognise this type of thinking.

My advice would be to recognise that you are particularly drawn to this type of situation, and find letting it go more difficult that NT people.
Armed with that knowledge you need to consciously step aside. Don’t expect it to be easy, but it will be beneficial to both you and your child.

Think of it like speaking multiple languages. When you are speaking to a subset of ND speakers, particularly those with High IQ + Autism, then you can generally presume that this sort of inconsistency will occur much less frequently, and resolving the situation objectively, to the letter is the accepted norm.

If you are speaking NT then the focus is NOT on objectively what happened in a certain situation, but on the bigger picture. For instance, in this situation the bigger picture is both the actual disturbance your child caused during class, and the understanding that a teacher, whose job it is to maintain an environment where teaching is possible for the whole class, will sometimes not have the mental energy left to focus on the minor details of how this is done. Your ASD brain might very well engrave this small disagreement upon your brain for eternity, but remember that it most likely wouldn’t even register to most NT people.

The school guidelines are there for a reason, but probably not the reasons you think.
They still need to be interpreted based on the gravity of the situation and the bigger picture. For example safeguarding will be very high up on the list, therefore provide should be followed to the letter, this minor episode low down therefore it will be generally understood that it’s not the end of the world if C1 was not officially recorded.

Agree. He has probably been annoying her for a while. YABU as even if your child is born from the Angels themselves this is a total over reaction and frankly you are wasting both the teachers and the schools time.

Yep. Taking it all in board and already sent an apology to the teacher

Anybody who has ever worked with children or adults for that matter understand that the people who say 'I always know when he's lying' are usually wrong.

Not back tracking. Just human. I've taken the comments on abord and have already sent an apology to the teacher and assured her weve spoken to my child about his behaviour, which we have.

Jesus who would be a teacher. This is pure tyre kicking, time wasting. Your son was talking he was being annoying. He got a detention. When he got home he should have got a good telling of from you for talking in class. You should not have got into the technical detail of whether he got a warning and what the procedures were. You then wasted the teachers time asking silly questions