Andrew - continuing his effort to end the Monarchy

[TheHaplessWit]

Another new story on Andrew today. Photo's have emerged showing that on Epstein's desk, there were emails regarding Epstein paying debts owed by Andrew/Sarah to staff:

https://people.com/epstein-had-emails-staff-ex-prince-andrew-sarah-ferguson-new-photos-show-11880419

Why on Earth was a Prince of England having his staff paid by a sex trafficker?
Doesn't seem "too honourable" to me.

Reading through this carefully, I am totally shocked.

It seems that Stern who was involved with Pitch at Palace was involved with Epstein, and by default Andrew, right up until 2018. And Andrew had meetings with anyone Epstein wanted him to. Epstein acted like his boss. Directing him to 'have PA invite him to the Palace'.
Stern was the go between Epstein/Andrew, they played him like a complete fool. And they were going to use him for 'aura and access' and as a useful idiot.

In 2011 the heat was on as far as Andrew/Epstein, Epstein was nervous about the connection, and that is when Stern stepped in. It all carried on but with Stern as the go between.

Surely surely this can't be swept under the carpet.

I agree, someone in the family needs to say something. Especially when you consider that the Queen and duchess Sophie have championed ending violence against women. I can't help but wonder what they've been thinking about this over the last several years, especially when they had to keep company with Andrew even after the photos of him and Epstein post-prison were published.

This.

I disagree

We’ve had enough of weasel words and performative hand wringing

Do something . Andrew won’t help the police so have the police themselves open the books . And have the trade envoy files opened too

Pitch@Palace again 😡

How on earth would W &C or anyone in the RF do any good making a statement or doing an interview? The people who believe them will believe them anyway and those who think the RF are morally bankrupt and need hanging won't believe a word they say! it's just more fodder for the tabloids. Likewise opening 'the books' to the public - so few of us would understand the contents it would just increase speculation and cause more issues than it would solve.

so few of us would understand the contents it would just increase speculation and cause more issues than it would solve.
Speak for yourself. There are millions of people who have the intelligence and intellect to understand the contents.

It’s a better alternative than maintainjng silence and blocking any journalist or author who tries to discover who knew what, and when?

If the RF are as concerned about the victims as they say they are, surely some explanation is owed to the British public as to why £12 million was paid to stop AMW appearing in court?

And some explanation is owned to the public about why QE2 or anyone in the RF did not respond or act when politicians and diplomats brought them evidence of AMW’s alleged corruption and inappropriate behaviour as Trade Envoy?

Let’s start with the Trade Envoy papers which should already be in the public domain.

We could, for example, write to our MPs and ask why they aren’t?

Yes, I've written. I've just spent the last half hour drafting my communication and it's gone. and though I say so myself, it really was rather good!

People saying what good would that do, a public statement... well what good would anything do? I can't see Charles making a statement in a million years though. The Palace could put out a statement saying Andrew has agreed to co-operate with the Police and the FBI but I imagine they will just hunker down and hope it all blows over. That's their MO.

But seeing the latest about David Stern, Andrew and Epstein, how can it blow over? Stern (pitch at palace and go between AMW/Epstein) was in contact with Epstein right up till the end.

As for the records not being opened because us poor morons wouldn't understand them, and it would just play into the media... dear oh dear oh dear. We're not all thick you know!

I know, I was sickened to read about how he profited from that in Entitled, but this ramps it up to another level. All of this needs to be revealed to the public.

Agree I would love to see it all laid out in the open. I am really interested in this and surprisingly able to comprehend it.

Good for you simpsonthecat!

I agree with every word.

If the RF are as concerned about the victims as they say they are, surely some explanation is owed to the British public as to why £12 million was paid to stop AMW appearing in court?

Genuinely, the answer to that question will almost certainly be that, in reliance on legal advice, they believed that settling the civil case against Andrew was the most appropriate step to take.

(that is the completely usual answer that pretty much any entity will give when asked why did you settle a court case. And I am sure it is true here as it is true in most similar situations: Andrew’s legal advisers will have been telling him that he should settle this case.I bet he didn’t listen to them though, until he more or less had to)

This is truly terrible. That is really bad.

This entire debacle is upsetting. I used to be a monarchist defending their constitutional role here many times and now have felt somewhat unmoored by this over the last few months in particular. I have found myself questioning what I believe in. It's upsetting to be doing a complete mental re-evaluation of QE2's reign.

She promised that all her life would be dedicated to our service.

Well, how exactly did it serve us to allow Andrew to represent us abroad knowing full well that he was abusing his position, propositioning women for sex and arranging meetings with sexual offenders working for foreign intelligence and probably dodgy dealing financially as well.

And moreover how did the above leave the Monarchy in a strong legacy position?

She's died having achieved neither. The Queen may have fulfilled many duties at the expense of her private life, however I hate to say it (the Queen to me used to occupy a place in my heart somewhere like a grandma figure) But she has neither served our best interests with this, not served the Crown as an institution, by not taking appropriate actions until her hand was forced and even then, looking back with hindsight, what action she took at the time clearly wasn't even enough then and she likely knew it. It was totally inappropriate to pay off VG. Surely someone, somewhere advised against it and if not, then it reveals a failure in the culture of the palace advisors and a failure of her receptivity to advice.

Was it Phillip dissuading her from talking action earlier and ignoring what was going on?

Or did she simply not hear it? Did people just not tell her exactly what was going on with AMW because they sensed it would upset her? I'd prefer to think it's the former, rather than a really terrible lack of judgement.

With all the stuff going on in the world, a cost of living crisis etc, we also have the Royals adding to the general sense of end stage gloom. Instead of being something...reliable, steady and yes, comforting that we can look to for a sense of continuity, it's now like another sullied institution (and sullied on the worst way) and even now no one appears to be really grasping the seriousness of the situation enough. It's all carry on as usual.

Neither does the government seem to want to do anything either.

So whom do the people have to trust?

Caught myself thinking rather bitterly hilariously that I've not heard anything about the Kardashians in the Epstein Files and maybe I ought to revaluating my assessment of them, perhaps my values are closer to theirs now lol.

It’s exactly like Jes Staley, formal Global Head of Barclays. He knew that his association with Epstein wouldn’t look good when he took on the Barclays role in 2013, so he lied to the Barclays Board and his Regulator about the relationship and used his daughter (his daughter!) as the go-between with Epstein.

Eostein did pull strings to get the daughter a place in Columbia though. And presumably had introduced Staley’s friend Boris to “African American gays”, as Stanley asked him to in one of the released emails. And we know from Staley’s hearing last year he and Epstein referred to various young women by Disney Princess names (“Snow White says hello” etc)

They make me want to be sick, all of them.

That is such an eloquent post and I feel for you. I haven't been a fan of the Royals for a very long time (I was at one point decades ago!) so I don't have that visceral upset about what they have been doing. But I totally get what you are saying, it is almost a sense of betrayal I imagine.

As I understand it (and this is not fact, but I have read it in numerous places) QE2 would not countenance any criticism of Andrew until forced to take steps. She was apparently very curt when approached about problems with his TE role and friendship with Epstein. However, in 2011 I think it was she did say she had 'concerns'. By this time he had done the damage over and over.

QE2's reign has been sullied by all of this but I wonder what the Palace are going to do now because it's not going away.

I have written to my MP in detail asking for the TE records to be released because at this point a sticking plaster is not going to be enough. The boil needs to be lanced and it needs to all come out in the open.

@TightlyLacedCorset

Well said and well done for being open minded enough to change your views . There are many many former monarchists who feel the same way. You are to be applauded.

Those who continue to defend the Windsors really need to look to their conscience, if they have one .

And believe me , even as a life long anti monarchist , I also feel unmoored by all the revelations .

For the trade envoy papers to be released several power structures need to agree primarily the government. I would bet a fairly large sum that senior civil servants are advising them not to release the papers, not because of what it would reveal about Andrew whose reputation is shot and who I don't think they care about, but because of what it would reveal about the government ministers and civil servants who appointed Andrew against advice and let him continue in the role once it was known how he was using it.

From the point of view of thise with power Andrew isn't and never was particularly important. But you can bet they will keep him front and centre and refuse to release anything that will spread the blame beyond him.

By 2011 the heat was on as far as Andrew/Epstein, Epstein was nervous about the connection, and that is when Stern stepped in. It all carried on but with Stern as the go between

As with the repellent Fawcett that's the charm of a go-between, @simpsonthecat ... they can be a useful patsy to get the blame and the principal can try to pretend they didn't know what they were doing

All the more reason for them to be released imho MrsLeonFarrell

Sorry but you are conveniently ignoring any influence, which may be considerable, that the RF had over said civil servants. Of course that is a difficult thing to quantify and that is potentially why these papers may have been hidden in the first place.

When crimes have been committed in ordinary circumstances, police often start investigating from a point of not knowing who exactly is responsible. The point of an investigation is to find out.

Also, now that Peter Mandelsohn is being investigated, civil servants and ministers are coming under intense scrutiny anyway.

And I can’t abide the notion that “Andrew is not important, there is nothing to see here” because it’s simply not true.

He has been involved in corruption at the heart of one of our most important institutions for years. Plus, according to Lownie, there is at least one incidence where it looks like AMW’s staff passed government information to business men who were not permitted to see it.

And on that point, everyone is forgetting the national security aspects of this. Epstein’s connections with Russia are becoming more apparent and AMW allowed him and a Chinese spy and many other unsavoury individuals such as gun smugglers entrance to various palaces and state buildings.

Is anyone investigating what AWM got in return for liaising with a Chinese spy btw? Is anyone investigating that?

It’s not enough just to banish AMW to Norfolk and then do nothing else. If the RF want an end to this saga, and care at all about the victims as they say they do, then they need to take the lead and encourage some decency and transparency,

I don't think @MrsLeonFarrell is saying the trade envoy files shouldn't be released - she is pointing out the fact that they are likely to implicate several people much more powerful than Andrew MW, which is probably one reason they haven't already been released.

I do think it's also relevant that he was appointed trade envoy by a Labour government, with Peter Mandelson apparently one of the people instrumental in that appointment.
I suspect that may have been one of the reasons for reluctance - but perhaps now the Mandelson investigation will open the way?

When i say Andrew isn't important I mean that he has no intrinsic power or influence. He had some in the years the late Queen kept backing him up but even then he was a low hanging fruit for Epstein. There are others who have far more power. In these sorts of cases it's always the least important people who get caught first.

I don't know how much influence the monarch has on civil servants. If he has some then I hope he uses it. I'm just not sure that he has the power to force civil servants to release documents that are going to incriminate government circles. At the current time the system is basically working to protect the system not bring justice or even clarity.

That's an interesting link. Makes you wonder what else any investigation would reveal.

This is such an eloquent post.

I used to be a monarchist too and even though I’m a republican now, I am not lobbying for quick change or revolution and very much feel that our traditions and history, should be preserved when changes are made, And that includes the dreadful aspects of our history as well as the good.

However, I can’t agree with you more about the monarchy failing to carry out its brief. In a time of global crisis, the head of state is meant to he a trustworthy, steadying hand.

Bluntly, knowing what we know now, the trust is gone. The RF don’t seem to understand, that it’s not just Andrew’s nefarious activities that need to be acknowledged and punished, it’s the cover up that is equally problematic.

Surely one of their highly paid PE managers can understand that and have the cojones to convey it to them?

Yes, the release of the Trade Envoy papers would really show some determination to clear out the stables. Both the Palace of QEII and certain Labour (and, briefly, Coalition) ministers of the time are implicated. (Andrew was Trade Envoy 2001 - July 2011.)

I think we’d all like to know who knew what and when; and if they still haunt the corridors of power today.

Tick tock.