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The royal family

As ever and PR disasters continued

1000 replies

AtIusvue · 07/12/2025 21:35

So Meghan lost her fathers number but is ringing round hospitals and will send a handwritten note, as per Sussex sources speaking through the Sun, the Telegraph and the Times.

I mean I have no idea, how it works with PR for very famous people, but surely there are scenarios they prep for?

Her dad is in his 80s, severely obese and has suffered ill health for years. You would think, there would be protocol in what to do should the worst happen.

That would include having up to date contact info. This isn’t something Meg would need to have/get involved with if she’s estranged, but surely ‘The Office of the DDOS’ would. Then engage in their set plan- whether that’s a public statement that this is a private affair or that contact has been made through the proper channels.

Whatever this is, it isn’t professional-it’s complete chaos.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
58
bluegreygreen · 28/12/2025 19:04

I don't think it is against MN rules to observe a pattern of posting.

I read (and agreed with) @BigWillyLittleTodger's post regarding the pattern. That post has now been deleted. There was no personal attack or offensive language whatsoever in the post @MNHQ. I see no reason for the deletion.

I didn't see @elessar's post or @Mylovelygreendress's second post. Or @Tubestrike or @lickingfingertastingfood's posts, but have no reason to think they were any different, given the rest of the conversation.

AtIusvue · 28/12/2025 19:07

BigWillyLittleTodger · 28/12/2025 19:03

There is absolutely no reason for your latest post to be deleted @AtIusvue so it will be interesting to see if it is. It’s very strange that five regular posters, myself @elessar @Mylovelygreendress @Tubestrike @lickingfingertastingfood have had posts deleted in such a short space of time this afternoon, none of the comments I read broke talk guidelines and in fact as regular posters it’s certainly not any of the named posters “style” to write hate speech or make personal attacks at all so it’s very strange indeed that within that short time period we have all done that……🤔

Exactly.

under deletion guidelines:

‘Post deletions
We'll remove posts we consider to contain personal attacks, to break the law and/or to be obscene, racist, sexist, disablist, ageist, homophobic or transphobic, once they are brought to our attention. We will also delete any posts that we think are just seriously unpleasant (please note that any subsequent posts repeating the words in the deleted post may be removed also).’

  • It doesn’t meet any of the above criteria.
  • It also doesn’t meet the criteria of troll hunting; as there were no usernames mentioned or information that could reveal usernames.
OP posts:
BigWillyLittleTodger · 28/12/2025 19:16

Thanks for posting that @AtIusvue would love to know how any of our posts met that criteria (they didn’t) the moderation on here is incredibly poor, we have regular posters who are stalked across the board, as a group the goading is off the scale, we are name called regularly (cap doffers, forelock tuggers, haters, racists etc. derailing at every opportunity with the but but Andrew crowd, I could go on, but those posts always are allowed, but to mention a pattern of posting behaviour of a group, not a named individual, instant deletion.

AtIusvue · 28/12/2025 19:19

BigWillyLittleTodger · 28/12/2025 19:16

Thanks for posting that @AtIusvue would love to know how any of our posts met that criteria (they didn’t) the moderation on here is incredibly poor, we have regular posters who are stalked across the board, as a group the goading is off the scale, we are name called regularly (cap doffers, forelock tuggers, haters, racists etc. derailing at every opportunity with the but but Andrew crowd, I could go on, but those posts always are allowed, but to mention a pattern of posting behaviour of a group, not a named individual, instant deletion.

It’s shameful.

MN…..do better!!!!!

OP posts:
elessar · 28/12/2025 19:31

BigWillyLittleTodger · 28/12/2025 19:03

There is absolutely no reason for your latest post to be deleted @AtIusvue so it will be interesting to see if it is. It’s very strange that five regular posters, myself @elessar @Mylovelygreendress @Tubestrike @lickingfingertastingfood have had posts deleted in such a short space of time this afternoon, none of the comments I read broke talk guidelines and in fact as regular posters it’s certainly not any of the named posters “style” to write hate speech or make personal attacks at all so it’s very strange indeed that within that short time period we have all done that……🤔

having just reread the talk guidelines, the only rule I can see that comes close to the mark is no troll hunting, which is defined as “accusing someone on the thread of being a troll.”

The posts this afternoon don’t fall into that category in my view - they were talking about a general trend seen in some types of posters, behaving in a way which is known to be used as a PR tactic to influence narrative and discussion. No individuals were named or personally accused.

It is dangerous in my opinion to disallow general discussion about this topic, when this type of tactic is now used commonly across the internet and social media sites by those with enough money to try and influence public opinion or shut down reasonable criticism or debate about celebrities or public figures.

Mylovelygreendress · 28/12/2025 19:57

BigWillyLittleTodger · 28/12/2025 19:03

There is absolutely no reason for your latest post to be deleted @AtIusvue so it will be interesting to see if it is. It’s very strange that five regular posters, myself @elessar @Mylovelygreendress @Tubestrike @lickingfingertastingfood have had posts deleted in such a short space of time this afternoon, none of the comments I read broke talk guidelines and in fact as regular posters it’s certainly not any of the named posters “style” to write hate speech or make personal attacks at all so it’s very strange indeed that within that short time period we have all done that……🤔

Only just noticed that my earlier post was deleted . I can’t think what was wrong with it but maybe MNHQ will explain ?

jeffgoldblum · 28/12/2025 20:22

At the risk of being deleted myself?! , mn only look at reported posts, if enough reports ( I.e mass reporting) occur in a small window of time from enough people, they will delete even if it doesn’t appear to be against guidelines! , this practice should not be allowed in my opinion 🤷‍♀️

RecoIIectionsMayVary · 28/12/2025 20:40

I've been reading this with a 😱face at the deletion. I also can't see how any of the deleted posts were against guidelines - I can only assume that it is user reports and a certain number trigger an automatic deletion, especially during the holidays.

I will report my post and ask.

OP posts:
LemonLeaves · 28/12/2025 20:56

Saw the news about Meredith Maines and wondered if @givemespanakopita was around to comment, as I really enjoy her PR insights. There's another poster as well who has a PR background but apologies cannot remember who.

Jaffyyy · 28/12/2025 21:28

Ouchhhhh……

The official, unconvincing, line is that it was all brilliant but she quit because whatever work she was doing is now “concluded.”

The only problem with the “mission accomplished” framing is that a) the Sussexes have had a terrible year PR-wise in which their reputation has sunk like a stone which presumably wasn’t the aim and b) nobody, at the time of her appointment, suggested she’d been brought in for a finite task.
She wasn’t announced as a short-term fixer parachuting into a crisis. She was presented as a grown-up who would bring order to every part of a brand that has spent five years pinballing between reinvention, self-inflicted fiasco, and frantic damage control.
Maines is not a novice. By any reasonable measure, she’s a serious operator with experience in the grinding pressure-cooker of Silicon Valley-adjacent comms culture, places like Google, Hulu, big-name corporate worlds where the free snacks are less a perk than a strategy to keep you chained to your desk.
When people who have endured the “never leave the campus” culture decide they’d rather take their chances elsewhere than do another season in Montecito, it tells you something palace courtiers have long known all too well: the job isn’t hard because of the press. It’s hard because of the “principals.”
The story is now the pattern, by which I mean that Maines’ exit is just the latest in a long line of staffers who arrive with glossy résumés and depart a few months later, often accompanied by brief statements that read like they have been mailed in from a re-education camp.
The Sussex machine has become a place where senior professionals appear, attempt to impose some structure, and then vanish, leaving behind a burning question: are Harry and Meghan simply impossible to work for?
A PR can survive, even shine, in a hostile press cycle. What they can’t easily survive is clients who won’t listen, or, worse, clients who lie to them and insist you push a false narrative that collapses under basic scrutiny (see: the Kardashian social media consent form lie, or the Sussex suggestion, repeated in the London Times, that Thomas Markle was possibly lying about having his leg amputated). When your brand is “compassion,” every messy example of human cynicism becomes a negative multiplier.
The nightmare for any publicist is the moment your client forces you to double down on something that is untrue. Then the damage doesn’t just stick to the celebrity; it sticks to the publicist.
At that point you are not doing PR. You are trading your own reputation to protect theirs.
If you have a career to protect, you start doing the maths: how many more “checkbox” debacles, how many more chaotic statements, how many more public contradictions can you front before your own name becomes synonymous with the shitshow?
A competent comms chief can manage bad headlines. They can’t manage principals who keep lighting matches while soaked in gasoline.
2025 has been a masterclass in exactly that. The Sussexes’ big, glossy reset year has instead been defined by a rolling wave of endless, self-initiated crises. There was a recurring theme of grand announcements and brand “resets” that resulted mostly in tik-tok parodies and ridicule.
The new product line launch was chaotic, self-aggrandizing awards were accepted and then almost everyone at Archewell Philanthropies was fired (the charity now only has two full time staff) and the charity has now restructured.
Archewell’s nebulous identity—jam, charity, productions, “philanthropies,” and whatever the next label might be—has created the sense of a shop constantly changing its sign because customers keep walking past.
Even the charitable posture has become a target for suspicion, partly because the couple’s public work so often arrives with a camera crew attached.
Looming over everything this year was the aura of total inauthenticity, perfectly illustrated by a set of jam tongs being held the wrong way round in an Instagram photo meant to promote Meghan’s authentic love of jam making.
And there’s another dynamic at play: money. The cash spigot gushed less powerfully this year. I understand the Sussexes will not replace Maines with another full-time U.S.-based comms chief.
Instead, the UK-based Liam Maguire—like Harry, Maguire has a military background—appears set to take a bigger role. If you are trying to cut costs, eliminating a huge, senior American salary is an efficient way to do it. But if you are trying to run a California-based celebrity operation, having your comms lead on London time obviously carries a risk of burnout. It seems unlikely to be a recommendation of, say, BetterUp, the holistic coaching group Harry works for.
Which brings us to the most corrosive element of all: Meghan the demon boss.
The Sussex office has, in multiple high-profile reports over recent years, been framed as an intense environment; high pressure, rapidly shifting expectations, liable to hit DEFCON 1 over minor issues. Staffers describe the experience as emotionally draining. Meghan has always rejected the caricature.
11 PRs in five years keeps the story alive.
This narrative is highly resistant to spin because every time they deny it, another senior person leaves. They say it was a short-term contract, but then the next one also turns out to be short-term, and the one after that.
You can attempt the grand counter-offensive—anonymous briefings about how kind and wonderful the boss is—but when the messengers are paid-up staffers, the testimonials land as fake.
What would a rational crisis strategy look like now, if you were brought in to salvage what can be salvaged?
The answer is simple, and unlikely to happen: stop. Take a six month vow of silence.
But that strategy requires the one quality Meghan has rarely demonstrated: restraint.
In a world where many people cling to prestigious jobs despite workplace misery, the Sussex role has become the rare gig that makes seasoned veterans decide, cheerfully and publicly, as Elvis Costello once put it, that they would rather be anywhere else than here today.

lickingfingertastingfood · 28/12/2025 21:29

LemonLeaves · 28/12/2025 20:56

Saw the news about Meredith Maines and wondered if @givemespanakopita was around to comment, as I really enjoy her PR insights. There's another poster as well who has a PR background but apologies cannot remember who.

Don't believe everything you read on here ☺️

lickingfingertastingfood · 28/12/2025 21:31

I don't know why my post was deleted either as I just agreed with something else another poster said 🤷‍♀️

lickingfingertastingfood · 28/12/2025 21:34

And yes the speed at which it happened and the short time frame was odd.

Mylovelygreendress · 28/12/2025 21:37

lickingfingertastingfood · 28/12/2025 21:29

Don't believe everything you read on here ☺️

Agree .

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/12/2025 22:19

Jaffyyy · 28/12/2025 21:28

Ouchhhhh……

The official, unconvincing, line is that it was all brilliant but she quit because whatever work she was doing is now “concluded.”

The only problem with the “mission accomplished” framing is that a) the Sussexes have had a terrible year PR-wise in which their reputation has sunk like a stone which presumably wasn’t the aim and b) nobody, at the time of her appointment, suggested she’d been brought in for a finite task.
She wasn’t announced as a short-term fixer parachuting into a crisis. She was presented as a grown-up who would bring order to every part of a brand that has spent five years pinballing between reinvention, self-inflicted fiasco, and frantic damage control.
Maines is not a novice. By any reasonable measure, she’s a serious operator with experience in the grinding pressure-cooker of Silicon Valley-adjacent comms culture, places like Google, Hulu, big-name corporate worlds where the free snacks are less a perk than a strategy to keep you chained to your desk.
When people who have endured the “never leave the campus” culture decide they’d rather take their chances elsewhere than do another season in Montecito, it tells you something palace courtiers have long known all too well: the job isn’t hard because of the press. It’s hard because of the “principals.”
The story is now the pattern, by which I mean that Maines’ exit is just the latest in a long line of staffers who arrive with glossy résumés and depart a few months later, often accompanied by brief statements that read like they have been mailed in from a re-education camp.
The Sussex machine has become a place where senior professionals appear, attempt to impose some structure, and then vanish, leaving behind a burning question: are Harry and Meghan simply impossible to work for?
A PR can survive, even shine, in a hostile press cycle. What they can’t easily survive is clients who won’t listen, or, worse, clients who lie to them and insist you push a false narrative that collapses under basic scrutiny (see: the Kardashian social media consent form lie, or the Sussex suggestion, repeated in the London Times, that Thomas Markle was possibly lying about having his leg amputated). When your brand is “compassion,” every messy example of human cynicism becomes a negative multiplier.
The nightmare for any publicist is the moment your client forces you to double down on something that is untrue. Then the damage doesn’t just stick to the celebrity; it sticks to the publicist.
At that point you are not doing PR. You are trading your own reputation to protect theirs.
If you have a career to protect, you start doing the maths: how many more “checkbox” debacles, how many more chaotic statements, how many more public contradictions can you front before your own name becomes synonymous with the shitshow?
A competent comms chief can manage bad headlines. They can’t manage principals who keep lighting matches while soaked in gasoline.
2025 has been a masterclass in exactly that. The Sussexes’ big, glossy reset year has instead been defined by a rolling wave of endless, self-initiated crises. There was a recurring theme of grand announcements and brand “resets” that resulted mostly in tik-tok parodies and ridicule.
The new product line launch was chaotic, self-aggrandizing awards were accepted and then almost everyone at Archewell Philanthropies was fired (the charity now only has two full time staff) and the charity has now restructured.
Archewell’s nebulous identity—jam, charity, productions, “philanthropies,” and whatever the next label might be—has created the sense of a shop constantly changing its sign because customers keep walking past.
Even the charitable posture has become a target for suspicion, partly because the couple’s public work so often arrives with a camera crew attached.
Looming over everything this year was the aura of total inauthenticity, perfectly illustrated by a set of jam tongs being held the wrong way round in an Instagram photo meant to promote Meghan’s authentic love of jam making.
And there’s another dynamic at play: money. The cash spigot gushed less powerfully this year. I understand the Sussexes will not replace Maines with another full-time U.S.-based comms chief.
Instead, the UK-based Liam Maguire—like Harry, Maguire has a military background—appears set to take a bigger role. If you are trying to cut costs, eliminating a huge, senior American salary is an efficient way to do it. But if you are trying to run a California-based celebrity operation, having your comms lead on London time obviously carries a risk of burnout. It seems unlikely to be a recommendation of, say, BetterUp, the holistic coaching group Harry works for.
Which brings us to the most corrosive element of all: Meghan the demon boss.
The Sussex office has, in multiple high-profile reports over recent years, been framed as an intense environment; high pressure, rapidly shifting expectations, liable to hit DEFCON 1 over minor issues. Staffers describe the experience as emotionally draining. Meghan has always rejected the caricature.
11 PRs in five years keeps the story alive.
This narrative is highly resistant to spin because every time they deny it, another senior person leaves. They say it was a short-term contract, but then the next one also turns out to be short-term, and the one after that.
You can attempt the grand counter-offensive—anonymous briefings about how kind and wonderful the boss is—but when the messengers are paid-up staffers, the testimonials land as fake.
What would a rational crisis strategy look like now, if you were brought in to salvage what can be salvaged?
The answer is simple, and unlikely to happen: stop. Take a six month vow of silence.
But that strategy requires the one quality Meghan has rarely demonstrated: restraint.
In a world where many people cling to prestigious jobs despite workplace misery, the Sussex role has become the rare gig that makes seasoned veterans decide, cheerfully and publicly, as Elvis Costello once put it, that they would rather be anywhere else than here today.

Edited

Stellar post, jaffyyy ...

Jaffyyy · 28/12/2025 22:45

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/12/2025 22:19

Stellar post, jaffyyy ...

They’re not my words - it’s a cut and paste section from the Substack link posted before - as I thought the content spot on.

My2cents1975 · 29/12/2025 01:34

Hope everyone had a wonderful holiday period and Merry Christmas to one and all!

It looks like a lot has happened...some not so surprising. I expected Meridith to exit by Thanksgiving as her clients H&M have a track record of not listening to advice, so the news she left mid-November (Thanksgiving is in the last week of November) was certainly not surprising.

The new person Liam Maguire was with Invictus when the incident with the wheelchair happened. After M moved a person in a wheelchair and the internet commented, a statement promptly came from the wheelchair user that she was fine. Now that we know that Sophie Chandauka refused to cover for M when social media commented on M's onstage behaviour during a trophy presentation, IMHO, it seems that Liam acquiesced to H&M, using the charity vehicle Invictus to manage M's personal reputation...something far beyond the remit of a charity.

Liam may surprise me but I have very low expectations...much lower than Meridith. I expect he will bow out well before the end of 2026...perhaps citing a need to spend time with his family and the time difference not working out.

BemusedAmerican · 29/12/2025 01:54

I read somewhere that Liam Maguire's family lives in Cornwall.

TawnyVowel · 29/12/2025 05:28

The loss of Maines is a very public blow. There can be no good explanation, unless she and her predecessors fell out with Maguire and became his collateral damage but she seems to much of a pro for this.

Interesting how no one is suggesting Maines failed in her role, it’s entirely that H&M are too difficult.

Thedom · 29/12/2025 06:42

Well, the rumours being put out by the Sussex ‘team’ (is there a team anymore?) is that Maines was not a good fit and Meghan was disapppointed in her.

I must say, I thought their PR this year was the worst ever, so it does appear Maines was either out of her depth and/or not allowed do the job she was there to do. On the other hand, it coincided with Meghan’s ‘launch’ as a media person and pushing her SM and business persona, so maybe no publicist could have helped her pull that one off.

Everything collapsed like a lead balloon, the interviews Meghan did only helped to further expose her conceited and unlikeable character. From the founders podcast, the Bloomberg interview, the immature clapback with Gwyneth, topped only by the worst ever interview with the weird friend, the Paris trip where she was again exposed for lying and trying to inflate her own importance, then the Harper’s Bazaar spread, not only an ugly photo shoot, but exposing the very core of her arrogance and superiority.

On SM it was another dive to the bottom with the twerking video, the silly photos and videos of the backsides of her kids, the utterly dreadful low quality content of her ‘food blogging’ side by side with the boring and ridiculed Netflix show.

I think she is now at the point of no return, I don’t think any publicist can do anything to improve Meghan’s image unless she has a personality transplant, the masking, pretending and attempted reinvention has failed, it’s more clear than ever that she is not an engaging. charismatic or authentic ‘face’ for any brand, be it jam, sprinkles, a tv show, makeup, or fashion.

Maines reputation will be saved, possible even enhanced, by the fact there was a very long line of employees before her who suffered at the hands of Meghan and Harry.

TawnyVowel · 29/12/2025 06:57

Thedom · 29/12/2025 06:42

Well, the rumours being put out by the Sussex ‘team’ (is there a team anymore?) is that Maines was not a good fit and Meghan was disapppointed in her.

I must say, I thought their PR this year was the worst ever, so it does appear Maines was either out of her depth and/or not allowed do the job she was there to do. On the other hand, it coincided with Meghan’s ‘launch’ as a media person and pushing her SM and business persona, so maybe no publicist could have helped her pull that one off.

Everything collapsed like a lead balloon, the interviews Meghan did only helped to further expose her conceited and unlikeable character. From the founders podcast, the Bloomberg interview, the immature clapback with Gwyneth, topped only by the worst ever interview with the weird friend, the Paris trip where she was again exposed for lying and trying to inflate her own importance, then the Harper’s Bazaar spread, not only an ugly photo shoot, but exposing the very core of her arrogance and superiority.

On SM it was another dive to the bottom with the twerking video, the silly photos and videos of the backsides of her kids, the utterly dreadful low quality content of her ‘food blogging’ side by side with the boring and ridiculed Netflix show.

I think she is now at the point of no return, I don’t think any publicist can do anything to improve Meghan’s image unless she has a personality transplant, the masking, pretending and attempted reinvention has failed, it’s more clear than ever that she is not an engaging. charismatic or authentic ‘face’ for any brand, be it jam, sprinkles, a tv show, makeup, or fashion.

Maines reputation will be saved, possible even enhanced, by the fact there was a very long line of employees before her who suffered at the hands of Meghan and Harry.

Edited

I’m amazed that she still seems to be able to get cameos with the montecito massive - unless they’re also used to blaming everything on “the staff”.

The “it’s always someone else’s fault” pattern of her and Harry’s life seems to repeating itself again.

Thedom · 29/12/2025 07:59

The two big players in her corner originally, Oprah and Tyler Perry, are very much tainted now with scandals, Oprah with her links to some depraved individuals like Weinstein, Diddy, John of God faith healer, and now Perry, all accused of being sexual abusers. Oh and Ellen, not exactly the most honorable people to have in your corner, doling out financial help.

The rest of the Montecito crew are probably still fascinated with Harry being a Prince of the British Royal Family, and the older women are of the era where Diana was an icon and maybe they feel a connection to Diana through Harry.

Anyway , most of them all seem as shallow and fake as each other.

LemonLeaves · 29/12/2025 08:47

@lickingfingertastingfood @Mylovelygreendress thanks for the heads-up - all sounds intriguing!!

"Well, the rumours being put out by the Sussex ‘team’ (is there a team anymore?) is that Maines was not a good fit and Meghan was disappointed in her."

@Thedom I wonder if there are any credible PR professionals left, who think this is a genuine explanation for why another highly experienced publicist has jumped ship. Especially when you look at the differences in tone and language in the respective statements that have been issued. MM's seems to send a clear signal to her peers and potential employers that she remains professional even when she's in an untenable position. Whereas the DDoS statement seems pretty mealy-mouthed and reads to me as being slightly passive aggressive.

I have zilch PR experience. There's clearly a real determination to keep trying, which I admire, because whilst I don't rate what they are doing, they are at least attempting to earn a living. But given where they are right now, surely at this stage they need to face the fact that they don't know what they are doing? They have a track record of making their own publicity decisions which continually and consistently land quite badly. I'm really interested in how bad things need to get, for them to realise that they need to start listening to and taking the advice of the professionals who know and understand how this works.

Jaffyyy · 29/12/2025 09:30

Thedom · 29/12/2025 06:42

Well, the rumours being put out by the Sussex ‘team’ (is there a team anymore?) is that Maines was not a good fit and Meghan was disapppointed in her.

I must say, I thought their PR this year was the worst ever, so it does appear Maines was either out of her depth and/or not allowed do the job she was there to do. On the other hand, it coincided with Meghan’s ‘launch’ as a media person and pushing her SM and business persona, so maybe no publicist could have helped her pull that one off.

Everything collapsed like a lead balloon, the interviews Meghan did only helped to further expose her conceited and unlikeable character. From the founders podcast, the Bloomberg interview, the immature clapback with Gwyneth, topped only by the worst ever interview with the weird friend, the Paris trip where she was again exposed for lying and trying to inflate her own importance, then the Harper’s Bazaar spread, not only an ugly photo shoot, but exposing the very core of her arrogance and superiority.

On SM it was another dive to the bottom with the twerking video, the silly photos and videos of the backsides of her kids, the utterly dreadful low quality content of her ‘food blogging’ side by side with the boring and ridiculed Netflix show.

I think she is now at the point of no return, I don’t think any publicist can do anything to improve Meghan’s image unless she has a personality transplant, the masking, pretending and attempted reinvention has failed, it’s more clear than ever that she is not an engaging. charismatic or authentic ‘face’ for any brand, be it jam, sprinkles, a tv show, makeup, or fashion.

Maines reputation will be saved, possible even enhanced, by the fact there was a very long line of employees before her who suffered at the hands of Meghan and Harry.

Edited

It’s so funny when you outline all of their shenanigans in 2025. Especially that it’s not even a year since she launched her Insta then As Ever and WLM - feels like years ago - so much has happened to keep us all chuckling at the pantomime that is this grandiose and delusional couple play out on the world stage for entertainment and ridicule. It would be good to do a 2025 end of year round up on a timeline of all the incidents, the clap backs etc. that kept us all laughing.

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